Captain William C. Quantrill, CSA

[101combatvet]

I didn't now there was rules to war. The object was to kill or be killed, and win the battles.

They have always existed.

 

[diane]

You mentioned why earlier. I actually wouldn't do it myself but can except those that did throughout history.

The motive for such collection was quite different, as you note. One of my several greats uncles wore a necklace of fingers. They were specifically bow fingers - he kept them so that his enemies couldn't shoot him in the afterlife. Bill Anderson's culture didn't follow that belief, however, so that's why I called his collections an alien chilliness. It meant something very different to him than it did to my ancestor.

In the same vein, was Jack Hinson unbalanced? He was a very successful Confederate partisan - one man war! I'd say he was. But he never collected anything, not even notches on his really modified gun, nor did he gather around him other more or less damaged people. He operated in Tennessee and at that time the war there wasn't very civilized at all, but he did put down his gun when the war ended and literally disappeared. (Well, he was there but nobody said anything about it.)

We don't know if Anderson would have stopped, too, because he was killed during the war, but considering many of his colleagues continued into colorful if often brief careers after the war ended, it's likely he would have as well. His alignment with the Confederacy was not so much a belief in that ideal but more a reason to justify disposing of those he held responsible for personal miseries - which seemed to be everybody.

 

[101combatvet]

The motive for such collection was quite different, as you note. One of my several greats uncles wore a necklace of fingers. They were specifically bow fingers - he kept them so that his enemies couldn't shoot him in the afterlife. Bill Anderson's culture didn't follow that belief, however, so that's why I called his collections an alien chilliness. It meant something very different to him than it did to my ancestor.

In the same vein, was Jack Hinson unbalanced? He was a very successful Confederate partisan - one man war! I'd say he was. But he never collected anything, not even notches on his really modified gun, nor did he gather around him other more or less damaged people. He operated in Tennessee and at that time the war there wasn't very civilized at all, but he did put down his gun when the war ended and literally disappeared. (Well, he was there but nobody said anything about it.)

We don't know if Anderson would have stopped, too, because he was killed during the war, but considering many of his colleagues continued into colorful if often brief careers after the war ended, it's likely he would have as well. His alignment with the Confederacy was not so much a belief in that ideal but more a reason to justify disposing of those he held responsible for personal miseries - which seemed to be everybody.

Sorry, I refuse to hate anyone that has never harmed me or my family and friends.

 

[Nathanb1]

Pardon me, but I think there is considerable dogma in your attempts to rationalize and excuse the behavior of psychopaths because they called themselves Confederates.

Bill Anderson was a horse thief before he started killing people in more public and gruesome ways under the ruse of being a "guerrilla." Anyone who has ever driven across West Texas or New Mexico or the Great Plains understands that there was a reason they hung horse thieves, because they were basically murderers who left people to die without a horse in very unforgiving country.

The good folks of North Texas, who hadn't lived through the years of the blood feud in Missouri but were part of the Confederacy, wanted these criminals gone from their neighborhood.

Well, actually, a bunch of them had--and had fled to Texas to get the heck out of Dodge....so to speak. They sure didn't want that group of troublemakers following them! Henry McCulloch thought it was a bad idea to let them "help" anyway...he was just overruled....and frankly, desperate. He was right to begin with. They were more problem than the bush men they were supposed to round up.

 

[diane]

Sorry, I refuse to hate anyone that has never harmed me or my family and friends.

? That's an odd non-sequitur!

 

[Poor Private]

They have always existed.

If they have existed , what are they?
Do you get a 15 yard penalty for a violation?
-- Of course there wouldn't be any if you won the war, the winners write the history books..

 

[101combatvet]

If they have existed , what are they?
Do you get a 15 yard penalty for a violation?
-- Of course there wouldn't be any if you won the war, the winners write the history books..

Women and children are off limits.

 

[101combatvet]

? That's an odd non-sequitur!

It isn't if you are a Bill Anderson hater.

 

[diane]

It isn't if you are a Bill Anderson hater.

The question actually is, what about Quantrill? Maybe a little squirrelly but he wasn't a fan of old Bill's either, especially when he got Quantrill locked up for a murder! That definitely led to a parting of the ways.

 

[101combatvet]

The question actually is, what about Quantrill? Maybe a little squirrelly but he wasn't a fan of old Bill's either, especially when he got Quantrill locked up for a murder! That definitely led to a parting of the ways.

Didn't Anderson drum Quantrill out of camp over a heated argument? Can't remember the exact details.

 

[diane]

Didn't Anderson drum Quantrill out of camp over a heated argument? Can't remember the exact details.

They went back and forth quite a bit. Quantrill, not surprisingly, found Anderson hard to control. But the murder charge was really the final door slamming shut on their relationship. He never did know if Anderson deliberately lied to frame him or not. Hard to say - Anderson wanted his independence anyway.

p s
Maybe our friend @Patrick H knows more about this!

 

[101combatvet]

They went back and forth quite a bit. Quantrill, not surprisingly, found Anderson hard to control. But the murder charge was really the final door slamming shut on their relationship. He never did know if Anderson deliberately lied to frame him or not. Hard to say - Anderson wanted his independence anyway.

p s
Maybe our friend @Patrick H knows more about this!

I'm sure he does.

 

[Patrick H]

I'm sure he does.

I can't guaranty a thing, but will check with my reference volumes and see what I can find about this. It'll be sometime Sunday afternoon at the earliest before I can report back.

 

[leftyhunter]

If they have existed , what are they?
Do you get a 15 yard penalty for a violation?
-- Of course there wouldn't be any if you won the war, the winners write the history books..

The Union Army imprisoned and on occasion executed its men who committed rape. It also punished some men from stealing from civilians.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

18th, that's the way they are usually judged today. That's what I always used to believe, too--because I read and was influenced by all the things that we've all read and heard. In fact, they were being judged as common criminals by the union army very early in the war. There were numerous orders written for them to be summarily executed upon capture. That, in itself, is a pretty good reason not to surrender. But, just remember that all of these judgements were made by their enemies and after the war the victors got to write the history. Of course, there were some apologists like John Newman Edwards. But there wasn't a lot of objective reporting done for a very long time. Even William Connelly (who is not friendly to Quantrill in his writings) saw that some of these boys were good, brave soldiers. Connelly actually interviewed many of the guerrillas after the war. The Missouri guerrillas really shouldn't all be judged alike, because they weren't alike. I think Anderson became psycho (if he wasn't previously) when his sister died. He might have been all along. Jesse James became a very bad man--cleverly bad. With John Edwards's help, he spun a legend around himself during his post war criminal career. Frank James was as tough a soldier as there was in Quantrill's company, but was not a wanton murderer. He is known to have spared a number of enemy soldiers--particularly fellow Freemasons. He grew tired of his post war outlaw career and surrendered to the governor of Missouri. He lived a quiet, peaceful life ever afterwards, and was well respected by many--and seen as a sort of curiosity by others. And, as I've said earlier in the thread, Quantrill seems to me to have had a dual personality.
He is still considered a great Missouri hero by many, and he is still considered a vicious murderer by many. He probably deserves both judgements.

Good info on Quantrill he could be somewhat rational some times. Lucky for him he was shot and hospitalized in Ky although he did meet his maker. if he was caught by a Kn or Mo unit his last hours in this veil of tears would not have been pleasant.
Leftyhunter

 

[Poor Private]

Women and children are off limits.

Then how do you explain the bombing of Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, or the Blitz in London, or even the fire bombing of German cities, the destruction of Russian cities by the Germans.
The rape of the Valley by the Union, or Shermans march to the sea, no they didn't physically kill women and children except by slow starvation?
Your reply doesn't hold water, the innocent is always the victim, it doesn't matter by the fast death of a bullet, or bombs, fire or starvation.

 

[101combatvet]

Then how do you explain the bombing of Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, or the Blitz in London, or even the fire bombing of German cities, the destruction of Russian cities by the Germans.
The rape of the Valley by the Union, or Shermans march to the sea, no they didn't physically kill women and children except by slow starvation?
Your reply doesn't hold water, the innocent is always the victim, it doesn't matter by the fast death of a bullet, or bombs, fire or starvation.

Off topic, the thread is about Quantrill.

 

[Poor Private]

Off topic, the thread is about Quantrill.

Ah yes I agree it's about Quantrill being the topic, but in the 2nd post of the thread you yourself brought up the rules of war. And I just want to get what exactly the term means.
There are too many example out there to just blame Quantrill as a bad man just because of the killing of civilians, when it happened on both sides wether on purpose or accidental.
The border wars was a horse of a different color, The Kansas Jayhawks, the Redlegs, the Partisan Rangers there were no rules it's called guerilla warfare. Both the good(the winning side) and the bad(the losing side), had their notorious.
There are different rules for each side and each individual. You cannont read whats someones motivation is by a blanket statement. Every person, has their own idea, and motivation of the rules of war.

 

[diane]

I can't guaranty a thing, but will check with my reference volumes and see what I can find about this. It'll be sometime Sunday afternoon at the earliest before I can report back.

Thanks! Looking forward to seeing your post. I've only heard the foggiest references to this and it may be because Quantrill was only briefly in custody. Also had the impression it had something to do with Quantrill's brother? Whatever it was, it worked for Anderson!

 

[101combatvet]

Ah yes I agree it's about Quantrill being the topic, but in the 2nd post of the thread you yourself brought up the rules of war. And I just want to get what exactly the term means.
There are too many example out there to just blame Quantrill as a bad man just because of the killing of civilians, when it happened on both sides wether on purpose or accidental.
The border wars was a horse of a different color, The Kansas Jayhawks, the Redlegs, the Partisan Rangers there were no rules it's called guerilla warfare. Both the good(the winning side) and the bad(the losing side), had their notorious.
There are different rules for each side and each individual. You cannont read whats someones motivation is by a blanket statement. Every person, has their own idea, and motivation of the rules of war.