Capt or Col Quantrill?


I just came across this link. I don't know if the picture is copyright free so I didn't post the picture. I was looking for photos of CW reunions and this one popped up. In a way I was kind of surprised because I didn't expect so many of them to be left. For one thing, guerrillas don't usually have long lives and two, I didn't expect, as they aged to want to necessarily have reunions over the things they did as very young men. Were they considered honorable veterans compared to other CSA veterans? I didn't think so but maybe I'm wrong. Please educate me on this.
They were in effect post war rock stars, people would claim to have been with them that hadn't.

Of course the James-Youngers would be adding to the legend, and they were rather popular as well.

I tend to think postwar everyone in the south was in effect occupied during reconstruction, which made these men who had struck back at occupation more romantic to them. And in the James-Youngers case, rightly or wrongly, was viewed by many as still striking back.
 
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Here is the Quantrill Reunion image.

Quantrills-Raiders-Reunion.jpg
 
I believe Quantrill's commission was supposedly for Lt. Colonel. I don't think he had a real commission, nor was he really an elected captain either. I believe he wanted to be called a Captain. I forgot about the Hindman Special Order, but I still doubt it, because Quantrill, wasn't very liked by his own men very much. I wonder then who elected Todd, Anderson and the rest?. Quantrill did not have the power to appoint officers, so when and where were the elections held. Both Todd and Anderson held him pretty much in contempt. I believe Todd threatened to kill him. I know he lays low quite a bit of 1864. It has been theorized he spent much of 1864 with Kate King getting drunk. Quantrill made an appearance at the debacle at Fayette, where he advised against the attack there.
Q was was made captain by the special order when he was still popular and the band not a year old.

Now as to the rest once Q is sworn in as a Captain in the PACS, anyone he enlists would be legitimately PACS as well, but the ranks within the organisation were probally more acting then official. IIRC when q is sworn in as Capt, I believe Todd was 1st LT
 
I'm sure there was, but I never, ever remotely thought of putting Mosby and Quantrill on the same level!

Yeah.... My bad!

I only compared them in the sense that both were irregulars rampaging on their own outside of the armies. Mosby definitely the better!
 
I think the purpose of the Richmond trip was to seek a colonel's commission, and I think he was unsuccessful. However, this has been put forth by quite a few authors and it is possible that they are all just parroting each other. If he referred to himself as "colonel" after that, I believe it was self-professed.
Trip to Richmond? When did that happen?
 
Responding to some odds and ends now: I don't have the specific dates of Quantrill's trip to Virginia to seek a high ranking commission. Guerrillas were controversial among many senior officers, and I can well imagine Q. being cold-shouldered. Price, however, was happy to have Q's forces scouting for him. Missouri guerrillas tended to operate in smaller bands, coming together occasionally for bigger operations. George Todd, Bill Anderson, Dave Poole, Archie Clements, Fletch Taylor and others would all have led small parties at times, and reorganized with each other at different times. Clements is most closely associated with Bill Anderson. John McCorckle's memoir talks of riding with Q, with Todd, and with Dave Poole at various times. Before the Lawrence raid, Q called all the bands together for a war council. He used revenge as a very persuasive motive to convince the men to go to Lawrence with him. This suggests to me that he had the respect of a lot of the guerrillas at that point in time. I think Quantrill was actually quite popular with many of his men--at least at first. He was popular with many of the civilians along the western counties of Missouri, too. During the winter after the Lawrence raid, his command began to fragment, with Anderson and Todd both breaking off and each going his own way. Ironically, I don't think Quantrill was savage enough for their taste by this point. In addition, Todd and Anderson were ready to kill each other by that time. Quantrill is usually demonized by writers, but I think Anderson and Todd are responsible for most of the excesses committed by the overall group. Certainly, Q. was not responsible for the blunders at Fayette, the massacre and savage fight at Centralia, the Rawlings Lane fight, or the infamous meeting with Price in Boonville. Quantrill was essentially on extended leave and semi-retirement with Kate King in a cabin up a very long and deep hollow in Howard County, several miles upstream from Boonville. Several of Q's men left the band after Lawrence and went into service with Shelby. It's possible that Lawrence was too excessive for them, and it's equally possible that it would be easier for them to avoid Federals if they were part of a larger group. It's very hard to say for sure.

Regarding the reunion photos, there are several, but this is one of the more interesting ones to me, because John Noland was still alive and in attendance at this reunion. He is the black man at the right end of the back row. He was something of a celebrity along with these other guys, but when questioned about Lawrence, he insisted that he had scouted the town prior to the raid, but that he didn't participate in the raid itself. I am not sure I believe this version that he told to Connelley, but I think he's a fascinating character. In fact, my own search for information about him is what first brought me to civilwartalk.com. @Booner found some old census records that strongly suggest to us that Noland was a mixed race man, and perhaps the nephew of Asbury Noland in the Independence area. He might have been the half brother of the Noland brothers who joined Q's. group. I can envision them all heading off to fight together after a jayhawker raid. The other guys were celebrities, too, as @archiclements has said in a previous comment. They were often sought out for newspaper interviews and such. Some turned to the outlaw life after the war, but most of them resumed normal life as best they could.

Regarding Harry Truman, his uncle by marriage was Jim Crow Chiles--a well known guerrilla. Harry's grandmother had been raided by jayhawkers so it was natural for members of his family to have harsh feelings about them. One of my favorite stories about Harry was that he would go to Kansas periodically and his mother would say: "Be sure to look for your Grandmother's silver while you're out there."
 
Trip to Richmond? When did that happen?
In the spring of 1863, as the Missouri guerrillas headed back to Missouri from their winter quarters in Texas, Quantrill and two of his men went to Richmond, supposedly to gain a commission as a Colonel of Partisan Rangers. By this time, Quantrill had well over 100 full-time guerrilla's under his "command," as well as many part-timers. Having failed to obtain his commission, Quantrill returned to Missouri
where he immediately made changes to his command and his style of command. During 1862, Quantrill had practiced a "hands on" style of leadership, by personally leading most of the raids. But upon his return, he broke his command into separate units or companies under the command of his Lieutenants Todd, Pool, Blunt, Younger, and Wilson. Also joining Quantrill in the spring/summer of 1863 with their band of followers was Dick Yeager and Bill Anderson. With the change of command style, each of these Lieutenants had their own "areas of operations" in the counties of western Missouri, where they operated mostly separately and independently, but would gather together under the command of Quantrill when he called them together. Upon his return to Missouri, with Quantrill no longer taking an active part in any raiding as he had done in 1862, he spent most of the summer planning the Lawrence raid, and falling in love with the beautiful 15 year old Kate King, (and supposedly marrying her just prior to the Lawrence raid in August). It would be an overstatement to think of Quantrill to be a Commander in Chief of these various bands of guerrillas, but he was their leader via his reputation, and would keep this leadership as long as he had their confidence. He lost this confidence during the winter of 1863/64 while the guerrillas overwintered in Texas, and Quantrill spent most of the summer of 1864 with Kate and a handful of his followers in Howard County, Mo. where he took a minor role in the fight at Fayette. Quantrill was no fool, and I think he realized the war was lost by 1864, and he also realized that he would never be allowed to surrender in Missouri, so in the winter of 1864/65, instead of going to Texas, he took a small party of men and headed East. Why he spent so much time in Kentucky, where he missed the opportunity to perhaps surrendering with Lee's army, I have never been able to understand.
 
Responding to some odds and ends now: I don't have the specific dates of Quantrill's trip to Virginia to seek a high ranking commission. Guerrillas were controversial among many senior officers, and I can well imagine Q. being cold-shouldered. Price, however, was happy to have Q's forces scouting for him. Missouri guerrillas tended to operate in smaller bands, coming together occasionally for bigger operations. George Todd, Bill Anderson, Dave Poole, Archie Clements, Fletch Taylor and others would all have led small parties at times, and reorganized with each other at different times. Clements is most closely associated with Bill Anderson. John McCorckle's memoir talks of riding with Q, with Todd, and with Dave Poole at various times. Before the Lawrence raid, Q called all the bands together for a war council. He used revenge as a very persuasive motive to convince the men to go to Lawrence with him. This suggests to me that he had the respect of a lot of the guerrillas at that point in time. I think Quantrill was actually quite popular with many of his men--at least at first. He was popular with many of the civilians along the western counties of Missouri, too. During the winter after the Lawrence raid, his command began to fragment, with Anderson and Todd both breaking off and each going his own way. Ironically, I don't think Quantrill was savage enough for their taste by this point. In addition, Todd and Anderson were ready to kill each other by that time. Quantrill is usually demonized by writers, but I think Anderson and Todd are responsible for most of the excesses committed by the overall group. Certainly, Q. was not responsible for the blunders at Fayette, the massacre and savage fight at Centralia, the Rawlings Lane fight, or the infamous meeting with Price in Boonville. Quantrill was essentially on extended leave and semi-retirement with Kate King in a cabin up a very long and deep hollow in Howard County, several miles upstream from Boonville. Several of Q's men left the band after Lawrence and went into service with Shelby. It's possible that Lawrence was too excessive for them, and it's equally possible that it would be easier for them to avoid Federals if they were part of a larger group. It's very hard to say for sure.

Regarding the reunion photos, there are several, but this is one of the more interesting ones to me, because John Noland was still alive and in attendance at this reunion. He is the black man at the right end of the back row. He was something of a celebrity along with these other guys, but when questioned about Lawrence, he insisted that he had scouted the town prior to the raid, but that he didn't participate in the raid itself. I am not sure I believe this version that he told to Connelley, but I think he's a fascinating character. In fact, my own search for information about him is what first brought me to civilwartalk.com. @Booner found some old census records that strongly suggest to us that Noland was a mixed race man, and perhaps the nephew of Asbury Noland in the Independence area. He might have been the half brother of the Noland brothers who joined Q's. group. I can envision them all heading off to fight together after a jayhawker raid. The other guys were celebrities, too, as @archiclements has said in a previous comment. They were often sought out for newspaper interviews and such. Some turned to the outlaw life after the war, but most of them resumed normal life as best they could.

Regarding Harry Truman, his uncle by marriage was Jim Crow Chiles--a well known guerrilla. Harry's grandmother had been raided by jayhawkers so it was natural for members of his family to have harsh feelings about them. One of my favorite stories about Harry was that he would go to Kansas periodically and his mother would say: "Be sure to look for your Grandmother's silver while you're out there."
My favorite Truman story was shortly after joining the army for WW1 he returns home on leave and when he visited his grandmother she told him in no uncertain terms to never disgrace her house with a Yankee uniform again, as one hadn't been in it since 1863.

Personally I think part of Q's fall from Grace was he was becoming a vain blowhard. Most guerrillas were deeply motivated, but not by glory seeking though, though think many warmed to the celebrity status postwar.

Edit added- Would guess the 1863 visit might be when the silver went missing.
 
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Personally I think part of Q's fall from Grace was he was becoming a vain blowhard. Most guerrillas were deeply motivated, but not by glory seeking though, though think many warmed to the celebrity status postwar.

I don't see the whole "vain blowhard" thing. Perhaps if you could provide some examples? The men who served with him the longest never said that about him.
 
There's a Switzers Mill Cemetery about half way between Glasgow and Salisbury Mo in Chariton county. Is that the area you're talking about?


Yes exactly My great great grandmother is buried in Salisbury Mo. I just posted her diary on ancestory about there farm in Missouri during the Civil War check it out on the ancestry thread. Columbia Boone Missouri headstone.


Headstone.jpg
 
I don't see the whole "vain blowhard" thing. Perhaps if you could provide some examples? The men who served with him the longest never said that about him.
I have read accounts after Lawrence he rather bragged the rest of time till they returned to Texas, they would greeted as heros....1 that isn't what motivated most of his men at all....and 2 when they reached Texas that's not how Q's Lawrence raid was greeted at all.

It's not surprising his men quickly distanced themselves from Q........as he was the one bragging about it, trying to inflate his importance, he was also the only one trying to be a colonel to inflate his ego, both at the start of the war, and after Lawrence.
 
I have read accounts after Lawrence he rather bragged the rest of time till they returned to Texas, they would greeted as heros....1 that isn't what motivated most of his men at all....and 2 when they reached Texas that's not how Q's Lawrence raid was greeted at all.

It's not surprising his men quickly distanced themselves from Q........as he was the one bragging about it, trying to inflate his importance, he was also the only one trying to be a colonel to inflate his ego, both at the start of the war, and after Lawrence.
William Gregg was certainly one who bragged about being a Lawrence raider in much later life. He was a heck of a fine tactical cavalry man, too, and led the rear guard action all the way out of Kansas on that day. He later served as a sheriff. In effect, all the guys who participated in Quantrill reunions (and MANY) did, were bragging. Only one of them went back to Lawrence to stand trial: George Maddox. He was acquitted!!! His wife wisely spirited him out of the back door of the Courthouse and raced back to Missouri before those Kansans could lynch him. He finished his days in Jefferson City, Missouri, having worked as a guard at the Missouri penitentiary. He is buried in Jeff City, and his grave is one of those still on my Missouri Guerrilla check off list. As I said, most of these guys tried to find some degree of normal life after the war.
 
Found this today, not sure I've seen it before, also the heading rather curious

I've seen this photo before. I'm not convinced it's actually Quantrill, but it is attributed as such. Who can say for sure? Not me...
 
William Gregg was certainly one who bragged about being a Lawrence raider in much later life. He was a heck of a fine tactical cavalry man, too, and led the rear guard action all the way out of Kansas on that day. He later served as a sheriff. In effect, all the guys who participated in Quantrill reunions (and MANY) did, were bragging. Only one of them went back to Lawrence to stand trial: George Maddox. He was acquitted!!! His wife wisely spirited him out of the back door of the Courthouse and raced back to Missouri before those Kansans could lynch him. He finished his days in Jefferson City, Missouri, having worked as a guard at the Missouri penitentiary. He is buried in Jeff City, and his grave is one of those still on my Missouri Guerrilla check off list. As I said, most of these guys tried to find some degree of normal life after the war.
What is particularly bizarre about that, is some accounts list as reason of Gregg leaving Q in winter of 63-64 to join Shelby as he was disturbed by actions or conduct at Lawrence.........which makes it rather odd he was bragging about it postwar at reunions........

Though he had got into it with Todd before he left, which I suspect was probably the more direct reason.
 

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