Capt or Col Quantrill?

[Booner]

I think the change can be traced to the split that occured in Sherman Texas the winter of 63-64 between WCQ and Bloody Bill seems to me many like Cole headed fdr regular CS commands.

I completely agree.

Nice to see you on the forum again.

 

[cwsignalman]

If he was elected, thats not self promoted. we do know when the regt was supposedly formed, as several sourced have said starting with Connelly , there was a commissioned Col there, Col Holt, but in the Baxter springs communiques it was Col Quantrill, Why would Col Holt defer to a Capt, unless he knew the men had elected Q Col of the Regt and not him? Col Holt doesn't seem to have alleged being kidnapped...…..
Upon arriving in Texas as the temporary command disbanded, he reverted to using the title of Capt, The only time he signed anything Col himself seems to have been during the trip south with the 1st Regt
But yes he was orginally a Capt under the partisan ranger act, until being sworn into regular CSA service by Maj Wilson also as a Capt.

If sworn in as a captain than would his death at the hands of the Fed be a war crime?

 

[archieclement]

If sworn in as a captain than would his death at the hands of the Fed be a war crime?

Why? He would have been an enemy captain under arms.

 

[Booner]

If sworn in as a captain than would his death at the hands of the Fed be a war crime?

Being a guerrilla, Quantrell often wore a Union uniform, as he was wearing at the time of his death, passing himself off as Capt. Clark of the 6th MO Cavalry.
So no, I don't think any war crime was committed.

 

[Borderruffian]

If sworn in as a captain than would his death at the hands of the Fed be a war crime?

WCQ's Commission under the Partisan Ranger Act was rescinded in 1864 as were all others commissioned under the Act. Mosby and McNeil being exceptions.

 

[archieclement]

WCQ's Commission under the Partisan Ranger Act was rescinded in 1864 as were all others commissioned under the Act. Mosby and McNeil being exceptions.

Except he had been sworn into regular army service after Initially being organised under partisan ranger act. Not aware that was ever rescinded.

Its why his company had fought with regular cavalry at PG, they had been sworn into regular service prior. Again, in special orders 45 Maj Gen Hindmann ordered Maj J P Wilson to proceed at once to muster into the Confederate Service for 3 years, or the duration of the war, Captain Quantill Missouri cavalry company of 76 men rank and file on Nov 18th 1862

Then special Orders 46 by Hindman again has Capt Quantrill and his Missouri company report to Gen Marmaduke for duty, leading to them participating in PG.

That the partisan ranger act was disbanded, didn't affect companies sworn into Confederate cavalry service, it affected companies only operating under the act. The disbandment of the act would have affected very few troops at the time, as it was a provision for men to organise behind lines, once reaching the lines, most like Quantrill were swore into Confederate service which would then supercede the PRA organisation.

 

[cwsignalman]

WCQ's Commission under the Partisan Ranger Act was rescinded in 1864 as were all others commissioned under the Act. Mosby and McNeil being exceptions.

Thanks. So Richmond was trying to disassociate with that particular type of warfare by '64 in general or was it shall we say 'reputation' of certain partisan units?

 

[Stone in the wall]

Thanks. So Richmond was trying to disassociate with that particular type of warfare by '64 in general or was it shall we say 'reputation' of certain partisan units?

Several reasons, it had at first proved useful, but with a few exceptions was no longer still achieving the desired goals. Having "Buttermilk" rangers who slept in beds and ate home cooked meals also caused problems and grumbling with the regular cavalry. Leadership in some of the units was lazy and poor. Now back in the regular cavalry and part of a regiment they could still be detached and sent under partisan duty by their superior officers at any time.

 

[Borderruffian]

Except he had been sworn into regular army service after Initially being organised under partisan ranger act. Not aware that was ever rescinded.

Its why his company had fought with regular cavalry at PG, they had been sworn into regular service prior. Again, in special orders 45 Maj Gen Hindmann ordered Maj J P Wilson to proceed at once to muster into the Confederate Service for 3 years, or the duration of the war, Captain Quantill Missouri cavalry company of 76 men rank and file on Nov 18th 1862

Then special Orders 46 by Hindman again has Capt Quantrill and his Missouri company report to Gen Marmaduke for duty, leading to them participating in PG.

That the partisan ranger act was disbanded, didn't affect companies sworn into Confederate cavalry service, it affected companies only operating under the act. The disbandment of the act would have affected very few troops at the time, as it was a provision for men to organise behind lines, once reaching the lines, most like Quantrill were swore into Confederate service which would then supercede the PRA organisation.

WCQ went to Richmond and was able to obtain a Presidential Commission as a Captain under the Partisan Ranger Act of 1862. ALL Commissions granted under the Partisan Ranger Act were Presidential Commissions. General Thmas Hindman did muster a portion of WCQ's command into CS Service sometime afterwards but except in certain situations the " Boys " did not operate as " Regular" CS troops or Cavalry or Cavalry Scouts.
When the Act was rescinded in 1864 the commissions received under the Partisan Ranger Act were rescinded also including WCQ with the stipulation that their Commands were to be mustered into regular CS service and the officers were to apply for regular or volunteer commissions in regular CS service. WCQ and his men did neither and remained unmusterd and uncommisioned into regular CS service. The muster that had been conducted under Hindman was also rescinded under the repeal of the Act because the portion of men mustered that still remained had been mustered as Partisans and that no longer had any legality in the CS.

 

[archieclement]

WCQ went to Richmond and was able to obtain a Presidential Commission as a Captain under the Partisan Ranger Act of 1862. ALL Commissions granted under the Partisan Ranger Act were Presidential Commissions. General Thmas Hindman did muster a portion of WCQ's command into CS Service sometime afterwards but except in certain situations the " Boys " did not operate as " Regular" CS troops or Cavalry or Cavalry Scouts.
When the Act was rescinded in 1864 the commissions received under the Partisan Ranger Act were rescinded also including WCQ with the stipulation that their Commands were to be mustered into regular CS service and the officers were to apply for regular or volunteer commissions in regular CS service. WCQ and his men did neither and remained unmusterd and uncommisioned into regular CS service. The muster that had been conducted under Hindman was also rescinded under the repeal of the Act because the portion of men mustered that still remained had been mustered as Partisans and that no longer had any legality in the CS.

Again there was no need to re-muster into regular CS service, as they already had in 1862 for three years or the duration. That had never been rescinded.

They were mustered into CS service as Capt Quantrills Mo Cav company, that would include Capt Quantrill.

Later over that winter Quantrill supposedly goes to Richmond to obtain a commission as a colonel, which was unsuccessful. So at that point he remained a Capt of CS Cav.

He may have been elected a Colonel temporarily when the Regt was formed between guerrillas and recruits for the trip south in fall 63. But if so, as it was a temporary command, it would have been a temporary rank also.

 

[Pollaco]

What did the historian and author , Albert E. Castel, have to say about rank in his book about Quantrill?

 

[Borderruffian]

Again there was no need to re-muster into regular CS service, as they already had in 1862 for three years or the duration. That had never been rescinded.

They were mustered into CS service as Capt Quantrills Mo Cav company, that would include Capt Quantrill.

Later over that winter Quantrill supposedly goes to Richmond to obtain a commission as a colonel, which was unsuccessful. So at that point he remained a Capt of CS Cav.

He may have been elected a Colonel temporarily when the Regt was formed between guerrillas and recruits for the trip south in fall 63. But if so, as it was a temporary command, it would been a temporary rank.

They were mustered in as Captain Quantrill's Missouri Cavalry under the Partisan Ranger Act and WCQ'S Presidential Commission. When the Act was repealed WCQ no longer held a commission and the Company was not remustered into regular CS service because they chose not to be. Incidentally WCQ never applied for a regular or volunteer commission nor did;
Capt Anderson
Capt Thrailkill
Capt Poole
Or
Capt G. Todd
Whether or not the repeal of the act was done over bad press from Lawrence Raid or bad press from other incidents R.E Lee and Jeff Davis wanted Partisans gone from under CS auspices WCQ didn't play the head Sheds game not that he had much of a choice, he'd been removed from command by his own men in Sherman/Denton Texas and band had fragmented.

 

[Borderruffian]

Donald Hale has in his book We Rode with Quantrill has an image of what he says is Quantrill. I tend to think it is an actual image of Quantrill taken in 1863 or 1864. He states his reasoning for the image as being Quantrill. I have never seen it published anywhere else. I'll try to find a copy of the image if I can. I do have an image of the actor John Ales who played Quantrill in Ride With the Devil. I think he did a good job of playing Quantrill. Notice the rank on his collar.

View attachment 367318

The image of WCQ wearing a shell coat with Colonels rank insignia was taken in Arkansas, Little Rock I believe upon his return from Richmond. The coat is purchased not issued. WCQ was not the most honest and forthright of men, look into his Charlie Hart days in Kansas.

 

[archieclement]

Being sworn into service by regularly commissioned Confederate officers as Confederate cavalry is not the partisan ranger act.

As you pointed out earlier PRA was based on presidential authority. Being sworn in by a Confederate major would be actually regular Confederate service. Which is why Q supposedly went to Richmond to seek a colonelcy under the PRA after being sworn in as a Confederate captain, which he didn't obtain. Which left him as Capt of Confederate cav.

 

[Borderruffian]

Being sworn into service by regularly commissioned Confederate officers as Confederate cavalry is not the partisan ranger act.

As you pointed out earlier PRA was based on presidential authority. Being sworn in by a Confederate major would be actually regular Confederate service.

It is when you are sworn in under the authority of the Partisan Ranger Act and the CO was Presidentially Commissioned under the Partisan Ranger Act and the United was mustered to conduct Partisan Operations/ Force Multiplier Operations in enemy controlled territory.

 

[archieclement]

It is when you are sworn in under the authority of the Partisan Ranger Act and the CO was Presidentially Commissioned under the Partisan Ranger Act and the United was mustered to conduct Partisan Operations/ Force Multiplier Operations in enemy controlled territory.

None of which apply. Hindmann and Wilson were not under the PRA but regularly commissioned officers, they only could recruit regular army. Upon arriving in Arkansas they enlisted them as a Confederate cav company.

Q supposedly then travels to Richmond to seek a colonelcy under the PRA, it's not approved. That didn't rescind his having been mustered in as a Confederate cav Capt.

Note I use supposedly in relation to Richmond trip as it seems based largely on second hand accounts of what Quantrill supposedly alleges later.

 

[Borderruffian]

None of which apply. Hindmann and Wilson were not under the PRA but regularly commissioned officers, they only could recruit regular army. Upon arriving in Arkansas they enlisted them as a Confederate cav company.

Q supposedly then travels to Richmond to seek a colonelcy under the PRA, it's not approved. That didn't rescind his having been mustered in as a Confederate cav Capt.

Don't know where you got that thought Thomas Hindman was commissioned under the Partisan Ranger Act , but whatever.
WCQ was Commissioned a Capt of Cavalry Scouts by Presidential Co. mmission under the Partisan Ranger Act this Act also carried the provision that when a body of men were assembled ( as Infantry or Cavalry) they could be mustered into service for the CS UNDER THE PARTISAN RANGER ACT with certain requirements of that Act (which WCQ never adhered to) this the regulation that Hindman muster the mow Quantrill's Missouri Cavalry I've also seen it referred to as the 1st Missouri Partisan under which Hindman mustered them in separate from regular CS Muster procedures. They were Mustered under the Partisan Ranger Act WCQ was commissioned under it when Act was rescinded so was the muster and commission were null and void.

 

[archieclement]

There's nothing at all that suggests Hindmann or Wilson mustered them in under the PRA instead of regular cav service. PRA required presidential approval, which there are no instructions from Davis to Hindmann authorizing.

Any PRA connection would be from his supposed trip, which wasn't approved and of which there also would have been no need of, if they already had been sworn in under PRA by Wilson....

We know they were in fact mustered into Confederate Service, your claim it was under PRA requires it to have been authorized by Davis, of which there is no evidence, instead most accounts relate when he sought a PRA commission it was declined by Davis........Hindmann did have the authority to enlist them in regular service, which was being done with MSG units as well.

 

[Borderruffian]

There's nothing at all that suggests Hindmann or Wilson mustered them in under the PRA instead of regular cav service. PRA required presidential approval, which there are no instructions from Davis to Hindmann authorizing.

Any PRA connection would be from his supposed trip, which wasn't approved and of which there also would have been no need of, if they already had been sworn in under PRA by Wilson....

We know they were in fact mustered into Confederate Service, your claim it was under PRA requires it to have been authorized by Davis, of which there is no evidence, instead most accounts relate when he sought a PRA commission it was declined by Davis........Hindmann did have the authority to enlist them in regular service, which was being done with MSG units as well.

WCQs Presidential Commission was the approval to muster in the formation he had already assembled, that's how the Partisan Ranger Act worked. But fine let's pretend the Partisan Ranger Act didn't exist WCQ wasn't Commissioned under it his men weren't mustered under it and he and they didn't preform Partisan/Force Mulltipier Operations.

 

[archieclement]

WCQs Presidential Commission was the approval to muster in the formation he had already assembled, that's how the Partisan Ranger Act worked. But fine let's pretend the Partisan Ranger Act didn't exist WCQ wasn't Commissioned under it his men weren't mustered under it and he and they didn't preform Partisan/Force Mulltipier Operations.

I agree they weren't under the PRA, as they only had been enlisted as Confederate cavalry, by regular Confederate officers in the Trans-Mississippi

There never was any presidential approval for PRA to apply, or there would be something from Davis indicating they were approved under PRA.