Capt or Col Quantrill?

[archieclement]

I've seen this photo before. I'm not convinced it's actually Quantrill, but it is attributed as such. Who can say for sure? Not me...

My first thought was same.....But then its LoC wouldn't they have something to back such a claim?

 

[Booner]

Found this today, not sure I've seen it before, also the heading rather curious

[William Quantrill of Co. C, Quantrill's Missouri Cavalry Company]

1 photograph : albumen print on card mount ; mount 10 x 6 cm (carte de visite format) | Photograph shows identified Confederate soldier, guerrilla fighter, and leader of the Lawrence Massacre.

www.loc.gov

I've seen that picture before. It's from the Lindquist family collection (or a similar name). I don't think it's Quantrill. He had lighter hair and much thinner moustache.

 

[FedericoFCavada]

 

[Booner]

What is particularly bizarre about that, is some accounts list as reason of Gregg leaving Q in winter of 63-64 to join Shelby as he was disturbed by actions or conduct at Lawrence.........which makes it rather odd he was bragging about it postwar at reunions........

Though he had got into it with Todd before he left, which I suspect was probably the more direct reason.

Cole Younger also left the guerrillas for Shelby in late '64, and ended up in California on a "secret" mission when the war ended and didn't make it back to Missouri until a year or so after the war.
There's no doubt that something had changed amoung the guerrillas during the later half of 1863. Quantrill had lost control of them and he no longer had their respect. First Anderson leaves him, and then his long time subordinate Todd rebels and leaves Quantrill with perhaps, a dozen of his long time followers.

 

[Booner]

View attachment 367292

A picture of one of his gravestones. Parts of him are buried in three graves, or were at on time.

 

[archieclement]

Cole Younger also left the guerrillas for Shelby in late '64, and ended up in California on a "secret" mission when the war ended and didn't make it back to Missouri until a year or so after the war.
There's no doubt that something had changed amoung the guerrillas during the later half of 1863. Quantrill had lost control of them and he no longer had their respect. First Anderson leaves him, and then his long time subordinate Todd rebels and leaves Quantrill with perhaps, a dozen of his long time followers.

Not sure Coles story isn't just Cole telling stories. That's a big problem, there's only a few accounts, which would be biased by personal likes or dislikes. Some like Cole are kinda known for telling rather tall tales.

Q's downfall is probally the biggest mystery as it was internal and there is few guerrilla accounts. It's somewhat strange as in summer of 63 he still could muster probally the 2nd biggest concentration of guerrillas, and few months later nothing. His downfall was rather sudden and complete.

Note, as Lawrence raid included Holt and his recruits, I count Anderson's concentration at Centralia as the largest grouping of guerrillas

 

[Booner]

Not sure Coles story isn't just Cole telling stories. That's a big problem, there's only a few accounts, which would be biased by personal likes or dislikes. Some like Cole are kinda known for telling rather tall tales.

Q's downfall is probally the biggest mystery as it was internal and there is few guerrilla accounts. It's somewhat strange as in summer of 63 he still could muster probally the 2nd biggest concentration of guerrillas, and few months later nothing. His downfall was rather sudden and complete.

Note, as Lawrence raid included Holt and his recruits, I count Anderson's concentration at Centralia as the largest grouping of guerrillas

It was noted by some historian that Lawrence and Baxter Springs were the only Confederate victory in the Trans-Western theater in 1863.

You're probably right regarding the concentration of guerrillas at Central. Which brings us back to the original OP.
Holt was a regular CSA Colonel. It's been speculated that Quantrill was breveted by himself or his troops to the rank of Colonel so he would be the senior officer while Holt was with him at Lawrence, Baxter Springs, and until Holt left Q's command when they got to Texas, where Q reverted back to Captain. Supposedly, there was some communications between Price and Kirby Smith regarding who promoted him along the lines of "I didn't do it, I thought you did." After Q got to Texas, he didn't refere to himself as Colonel anymore.
Leslie goes into it in his book and his theory is as good as any.

 

[mofederal]

Here is a map of Little Dixie, and then a map of the State of Missouri. I was originally from Randolph County, Mo.

 

[mofederal]

Donald Hale has in his book We Rode with Quantrill has an image of what he says is Quantrill. I tend to think it is an actual image of Quantrill taken in 1863 or 1864. He states his reasoning for the image as being Quantrill. I have never seen it published anywhere else. I'll try to find a copy of the image if I can. I do have an image of the actor John Ales who played Quantrill in Ride With the Devil. I think he did a good job of playing Quantrill. Notice the rank on his collar.

 

[archieclement]

Donald Hale has in his book We Rode with Quantrill has an image of what he says is Quantrill. I tend to think it is an actual image of Quantrill taken in 1863 or 1864. He states his reasoning for the image as being Quantrill. I have never seen it published anywhere else. I'll try to find a copy of the image if I can. I do have an image of the actor John Ales who played Quantrill in Ride With the Devil. I think he did a good job of playing Quantrill. Notice the rank on his collar.

View attachment 367318

Again its somewhat hard to separate fact from legend with Missouri guerrillas. What little information we have seems to be from three sources.........

One. Union accounts........obviously biased, but often can confirm some certain engagements took place, and at least who they thought they were fighting, though some smaller ones tend to go unreported.

Two. Civilian accounts......also rather obviously biased as by 1862 most Mo populace seemed to be falling into guerrilla supporter/detractor camps largely following Republican/Democrat lines

Three. Guerrilla accounts......the fewest of all, as many died, kept few records, or active diaries ect, also going to be rather biased.

Then further complicating the issue of the rather limited information is the information of all three could be further divided into two types......

A-which seems most limited....accounts at or shortly after the events in question. Actual Union reports, newspaper reports of encounters/raids ect, eyewitness accounts at time.

B- post war accounts, which besides the usual issues of accuracy of memories and recollections, is also going to be clouded by the nature of the guerrillas becoming legendary/infamous depending again primarily on ones political views.

 

[Patrick H]

View attachment 367292

This is the monument on the last of Quantrill's three graves. This one is in the Confederate cemetery in Higginsville, Missouri. The bones in this grave had been with a private collector (I'm guessing Connelley) and then with the Kansas State Historic Society for years. They were repatriated to Missouri relatively recently--I believe in 1992. His skull was finally reburied the same year in his Ohio grave. The skull and these bones had been robbed when his remains were moved to Ohio in the 1860s.

 

[Patrick H]

My first thought was same.....But then its LoC wouldn't they have something to back such a claim?

I imagine their attributions are only as good as the people who gave them the material. This photo might have had "Quantrill" written erroneously on the back, or something similar. The famous Boonville photo of J.O. Shelby was misidentified for years because someone had written "Ringo" on the back. Another photo from a memento album had "Rob't. McCulloch" written under the portrait. The problem was that it was a misattribution made by the original owner of the album. I pointed out to the historical society that the photo clearly showed a general's rank on the man's collar, and McCulloch's rank was Colonel. I have no idea who the general was, but he wasn't Black Bob McCulloch. The historical society removed the attribution, but the picture is still shown as McCulloch in many places.

 

[mofederal]

Here is the image thought to be William Quantrill. Donald Hale said on page 119 of We Rode With Quantrill "This photo was believed to be an original photo of Quantrill. But based on closer examination it appears to be a photograph of George Todd. The reasons that Mr. Ismert thought it to be of Quantrill is listed below.

This copy is from a tintype that belonged to Martin Ismert. The tintype was acquired from C.C. Furr of Fayette, Howard County, Missouri in 1957. Furr's mother was the daughter of a member of Quantrill's band.

This photo was enlarged, shows a line of stitches across Quantrill's chin and cheek. John N. Edwards in "Noted Guerrillas" 1887 page 307, states "Quantrills object in going to Howard County was not so much to hide himself as to be at peace. He was sick, wounded, barelt able to ride, and worn from long pain and exposure. He arrived about the 10th of July, 1864, and spent the first few weeks with his old refugee friends from Jackson County, Evan Hall, Rueben Harris, and Samuel Sanders."

Other reasons to support the authenticity of this photograph are (a) the photo shows what appears to be a guerrilla jacket, (b) is a tintype of about the period of the Civil War, (c) is a man about the age of Quantrill near the end of his career, (d) and was located in Howard County by Mr. Ismert in the area where Quantrill was recuperating and resting with his wife.

The three ring insignia on Quantrill's shirt may be the insignia of the Blue Lodge Societies that were prevelant in Missouri prior and at the beginning of the Civil War....credit B.J. George, Sr.

I wish the image was clearer, it is better in the book, and if they improve the paper in later additions of the book, it would make the image clearer, and easier to see. The image is similar to George Todd, but something is off about it. Again I apologize for the quality of the image.

 

[Patrick H]

Here is the image thought to be William Quantrill. Donald Hale said on page 119 of We Rode With Quantrill "This photo was believed to be an original photo of Quantrill. But based on closer examination it appears to be a photograph of George Todd. The reasons that Mr. Ismert thought it to be of Quantrill is listed below.

This copy is from a tintype that belonged to Martin Ismert. The tintype was acquired from C.C. Furr of Fayette, Howard County, Missouri in 1957. Furr's mother was the daughter of a member of Quantrill's band.

This photo was enlarged, shows a line of stitches across Quantrill's chin and cheek. John N. Edwards in "Noted Guerrillas" 1887 page 307, states "Quantrills object in going to Howard County was not so much to hide himself as to be at peace. He was sick, wounded, barelt able to ride, and worn from long pain and exposure. He arrived about the 10th of July, 1864, and spent the first few weeks with his old refugee friends from Jackson County, Evan Hall, Rueben Harris, and Samuel Sanders."

Other reasons to support the authenticity of this photograph are (a) the photo shows what appears to be a guerrilla jacket, (b) is a tintype of about the period of the Civil War, (c) is a man about the age of Quantrill near the end of his career, (d) and was located in Howard County by Mr. Ismert in the area where Quantrill was recuperating and resting with his wife.

The three ring insignia on Quantrill's shirt may be the insignia of the Blue Lodge Societies that were prevelant in Missouri prior and at the beginning of the Civil War....credit B.J. George, Sr.

I wish the image was clearer, it is better in the book, and if they improve the paper in later additions of the book, it would make the image clearer, and easier to see. The image is similar to George Todd, but something is off about it. Again I apologize for the quality of the image.

View attachment 367421

I will go on record as saying this is NOT Quantrill. I don't think it's George Todd, either, but I could be persuaded otherwise. Q. had rather light hair and a slight build. Many people commented on his droopy eyelids. This man lacks those. This man is large and stout and has a lantern jaw. This is not Quantrill.

 

[Patrick H]

Here's an image of George Todd in a captured Yankee uniform coat. Decide for yourselves whether you think the man in post #53 is one and the same with this man. Could be....

It sure isn't Quantrill.

 

[archieclement]

Here's an image of George Todd in a captured Yankee uniform coat. Decide for yourselves whether you think the man in post #53 is one and the same with this man. Could be....

It sure isn't Quantrill.

View attachment 367428

Agree his face is mabye slightly fuller/fatter.........but the features seem very similiar

To Todd that is.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Here is the image thought to be William Quantrill. Donald Hale said on page 119 of We Rode With Quantrill "This photo was believed to be an original photo of Quantrill. But based on closer examination it appears to be a photograph of George Todd. The reasons that Mr. Ismert thought it to be of Quantrill is listed below.

This copy is from a tintype that belonged to Martin Ismert. The tintype was acquired from C.C. Furr of Fayette, Howard County, Missouri in 1957. Furr's mother was the daughter of a member of Quantrill's band.

This photo was enlarged, shows a line of stitches across Quantrill's chin and cheek. John N. Edwards in "Noted Guerrillas" 1887 page 307, states "Quantrills object in going to Howard County was not so much to hide himself as to be at peace. He was sick, wounded, barelt able to ride, and worn from long pain and exposure. He arrived about the 10th of July, 1864, and spent the first few weeks with his old refugee friends from Jackson County, Evan Hall, Rueben Harris, and Samuel Sanders."

Other reasons to support the authenticity of this photograph are (a) the photo shows what appears to be a guerrilla jacket, (b) is a tintype of about the period of the Civil War, (c) is a man about the age of Quantrill near the end of his career, (d) and was located in Howard County by Mr. Ismert in the area where Quantrill was recuperating and resting with his wife.

The three ring insignia on Quantrill's shirt may be the insignia of the Blue Lodge Societies that were prevelant in Missouri prior and at the beginning of the Civil War....credit B.J. George, Sr.

I wish the image was clearer, it is better in the book, and if they improve the paper in later additions of the book, it would make the image clearer, and easier to see. The image is similar to George Todd, but something is off about it. Again I apologize for the quality of the image.

View attachment 367421

The Blue Lodges were gathering sites in western Missouri for pro-slavery Missourians during the so-called 'bleeding kansas' pre-war conflict along the border. They were considered safe places to hold political discussions without the presence of spies, which the abolitionist New Englanders were known to dispatch to such meetings. The Parkville, Mo Blue Lodge was absorbed by the Masonic Lodge in Platte County. My Father-in- law was a member of the Parkville Blue Lodge. It was housed in an old building along 9 Hwy north of Parkville. Not sure if this was the original building or site.

 

[Booner]

The hollow or campsite that Quantrill stayed at in Howard County during the summer of 1864 is perhaps less than 5 miles from where @Patrick H and I live.

Below is a link to the Cantey Meyers Collection and contain a picture of Geo. Todd and W.C Quantrill together in 1863. Sorry, the sight won't let me copy the picture.

Home - George Todd and W.C. Quantrill

A Collection of Missouri and Partisan ranger original images of Quantrill guerrillas.

canteymyerscollection.com

 

[Patrick H]

The hollow or campsite that Quantrill stayed at in Howard County during the summer of 1864 is perhaps less than 5 miles from where @Patrick H and I live.

Below is a link to the Cantey Meyers Collection and contain a picture of Geo. Todd and W.C Quantrill together in 1863. Sorry, the sight won't let me copy the picture.

Home - George Todd and W.C. Quantrill

A Collection of Missouri and Partisan ranger original images of Quantrill guerrillas.

canteymyerscollection.com

Thanks for that link, @Booner. I've seen that image lots of times on their site. Some of our fellow members who are interested in Quantrill and his men would probably find the Cantey Meyers site interesting. It contains a wealth of photos and articles. We should warn people, though, that it's a Quantrill apologist site, so the average reader isn't going to like everything they find there. But once you realize the site's purpose, it's pretty easy to sort through things and glean some interesting information.

I don't agree with all of their photo attributions, either, but I find most of them pretty interesting. They have the site pretty well locked up so it's difficult or impossible to copy images, but one can always catalog links to them.

We see lots of pictures of the guerrillas later in life, but the C-M site is pretty unique in that it contains many, MANY pictures of these guys when they were teenage boys--as so many of them were during the war years.

 

[Borderruffian]

Cole Younger also left the guerrillas for Shelby in late '64, and ended up in California on a "secret" mission when the war ended and didn't make it back to Missouri until a year or so after the war.
There's no doubt that something had changed amoung the guerrillas during the later half of 1863. Quantrill had lost control of them and he no longer had their respect. First Anderson leaves him, and then his long time subordinate Todd rebels and leaves Quantrill with perhaps, a dozen of his long time followers.

I think the change can be traced to the split that occured in Sherman Texas the winter of 63-64 between WCQ and Bloody Bill seems to me many like Cole headed fdr regular CS commands.