Can anyone identify this buckle?

[Jonl51]

Greetings All,
Does anyone recognize this buckle? Looks like a period buff leather belt but not familiar with the buckle. Thank you!

 

[UCVRelics]

It very hard to see in the photo but it does not look like a State seal or CW period plate I have ever seen. A better photo would help.

 

[major bill]

Thank you for posting this belt buckle. I am not sure what to think about it.

 

[Package4]

I agree, a better photo would help immensely, though it does look to be a naval service buckle.

 

[Package4]

Greetings All,
Does anyone recognize this buckle? Looks like a period buff leather belt but not familiar with the buckle. Thank you!

View attachment 380458

It's a Naval buckle, just photographed upside down, a better picture will help date it to a period.

 

[Jonl51]

It very hard to see in the photo but it does not look like a State seal or CW period plate I have ever seen. A better photo would help.

Yes, wish I had a better picture. Thank you.

 

[Jonl51]

It's a Naval buckle, just photographed upside down, a better picture will help date it to a period.

Package4, It looks like an anchor is part of the features, but it's sideways. Will try for a better picture. English buckle maybe? Thank you. Jonl51

 

[Georgia]

Greetings All,
Does anyone recognize this buckle? Looks like a period buff leather belt but not familiar with the buckle. Thank you!

View attachment 380458

Yes, CSA Navy. Beware as they were reproduced in the 60's in England. Fakes are marked Higginbotton and Billups on the reverse of the larger of the two pieces.

Saying all this and looking at this example, I will say the casting of the laurel leaves encircling the button, appear to be more similar to the style of an original. However, I'm concerned as the originals I've researched has the larger portion of the 2 pieces reversed with the anchor/cannon crossed in the center at 180 degrees from the one you are sharing. Maybe the photo got "flipped?" Any photos of the reverse and if there is a lozenge style soldered hook on the reverse? Would be interested to see the back of the piece just for good measure.


I have a copy/fake one thatMomma picked up in a box lot at an estate sale from an old home in Commerce, Georgia in the early '80's. CSA naval goods being so scarce, she hoped she'd gotten something good for Daddy's collection. But, for $5, it wasn't a huge monetary risk.

I have the fake buckle and paperwork which Daddy got from the museum in Columbus, Ga ( I think it is) explaining good ones and bad ones. ( new vs. fake)

Would you like me to take photos of all this info and share with you?

 

[Georgia]

P.S. Some have CSN centered beneath the cannon/anchor and others do not.

Sadly, while some were reproduced for the Centennial of the War as replicas, others are completely made to deceive.

 

[Georgia]

Ok, I realize you didn't say to share, but I took it as a sign to since I had the buckle and the papers on the table right next to where I was sitting. I'm currently going through the portion of Daddy's things which came home with me.

I didn't really care if the buckle was real or not as I was with Momma at the Estate Sale in Commerce in the late '70's early '80's and it was a nice memory that I attached to the piece. After going through papers of Daddy's ( from everything to various regiments to tactical maneuvers in battlefields to his large collection on Mosby, these pages popped up) I took some time to confirm what Momma picked up wasn't real.

Hope you and others may find this helpful and if my photos aren't clear enough, please let me know and I'll gladly do a better set of photos for you.

Picking up this buckle and looking at it, the tactile quality of the metals used, the style of lettering and placement in the reverse and most definitely the smaller second piece being a different weight metal was a true giveaway it wasn't going to be real. Momma knew her Southern privatives, Sterling, linens, dishes and fine furniture- she wasn't exactly into Civil War relics but she loved Daddy dearly and supported his interest. Granted, when his dug bottle collection got a bit out of hand, she did um, "suggest" he relocate it to the Utility room which had the ladder to the Attic in it. But, any old books, signs, metal bits and bobs she'd always pick up for him.

(The methods that unscrupulous dealers will go to in order to age or "enhance" replicas is pretty intense. I tend to also check for wear on the patterns and if it's too much wear evenly distributed across the whole piece, it makes my "spidey-senses" go off. I'd expect wear, to be sure- but, sometimes, the distress is too much and you can pick up the rasp marks. )
Photos loaded backwards- sorry. The information came from the Director of the Confederate Naval Museum in Columbus, Georgia.

 

[Package4]

Ok, I realize you didn't say to share, but I took it as a sign to since I had the buckle and the papers on the table right next to where I was sitting. I'm currently going through the portion of Daddy's things which came home with me.

I didn't really care if the buckle was real or not and I was with Momma at the Estate Sale in Commerce and it was a nice memory that I attached to the piece. After going through papers of Daddy's ( from everything to various regiments to tactical maneuvers in battlefields to his large collection on Mosby, these pages popped up) I took some time to confirm what Momma picked up wasn't real.

Hope you and others may find this helpful and if my photos aren't clear enough, please let me know and I'll gladly do a better set of photos for you.

Picking up this buckle and looking at it, the tactile quality of the metals used, the style of lettering and placement in the reverse and most definitely the smaller second piece being if a different weight metal was a true giveaway it wasn't going to be real. Momma knew her Southern privatives, Sterling, linens, dishes and fine furniture- she wasn't exactly into Civil War relics but she loved Daddy dearly and supported his interest. Granted, when his dug bottle collection got a bit out of hand, she did um, "suggest" he relocate it to the Utility room which had the ladder to the Attic in it. But, any old books, signs, metal bits and bobs she'd always pick up for him.

Photos loaded backwards- sorry. The information came from the Director of the Confederate Naval Museum in Columbus, Georgia.
View attachment 380469

View attachment 380470

View attachment 380471

View attachment 380472

View attachment 380473

View attachment 380474

View attachment 380475

View attachment 380476

View attachment 380477

View attachment 380478

View attachment 380479

View attachment 380480

Very nice piece and documentation, unfortunately for @Jonl51 this is a US buckle pattern 1852 circa 1861-1890. Th national eagle perched on a fouled anchor within a ring of stars is the giveaway. Very nice specimen and could date more precisely with better pictures, front and back.

 

[Georgia]

Very nice piece and documentation, unfortunately for @Jonl51 this is a US buckle pattern 1852 circa 1861-1890. Th national eagle perched on a fouled anchor within a ring of stars is the giveaway. Very nice specimen and could date more precisely with better pictures, front and back.

You're right! I saw the shape, anchor and couldn't make out the critical details. I told my eye doctor it was time for bifocals! I'm very incorrect on this piece and I apologize.

The "grape shot" Should've clued me in.
So, @Package4, you're saying it's like this one I'm attaching and is SA war era? ( also explains why it appeared reversed to the second piece. )

well, hope the info shared might help someone else. But, I agree, better photos would help. I'm always a little leery of folks who don't have clear photos as I can't help but think they're trying to hide something.

*The photo I found wasn't correct here either! Probably safer for me not to share photos anymore on this so I don't keep goofing it up!*

 

[Georgia]

Very nice piece and documentation, unfortunately for @Jonl51 this is a US buckle pattern 1852 circa 1861-1890. Th national eagle perched on a fouled anchor within a ring of stars is the giveaway. Very nice specimen and could date more precisely with better pictures, front and back.

I keep finding similar but they have a rope instead of the raised line encircling the inside image.
So, I'm familiar with the centennial repros- am I interpreting what you're saying is that this particular pattern was made for the US and issued in 1852.
Then, it was reissued sometimes between 1861-1890? So, would this piece would not be considered Civil War issue?
Trying to wrap my head around this stuff...

Based on the details of the real buckles ( at least online they say they're real) and this example show by the OP, the eagle wings look really lacking of detail. Would the portion where the belt leather would go through be decorated in the manner of the example in the OP's photo?

I know there's a good bit to consider when looking at old pieces, but I've noticed a general lack of continuity in the decoration on the areas where the leather loops through- and the detail work on the acanthus/wreath leaves encircling the center detail as two give away areas. Do you have any advice for those who are getting into this area and don't want to make too many mistakes. I personally wouldn't hold you responsible for getting burned using your advice as I know there are so many areas to check. But I'd be most appreciative if you could help educate the lot of us as to what we should be looking for. It's just not practical to carry a reference book with you while junking.

 

[Mrs. V]

Ok, I realize you didn't say to share, but I took it as a sign to since I had the buckle and the papers on the table right next to where I was sitting. I'm currently going through the portion of Daddy's things which came home with me.

I didn't really care if the buckle was real or not and I was with Momma at the Estate Sale in Commerce and it was a nice memory that I attached to the piece. After going through papers of Daddy's ( from everything to various regiments to tactical maneuvers in battlefields to his large collection on Mosby, these pages popped up) I took some time to confirm what Momma picked up wasn't real.

Hope you and others may find this helpful and if my photos aren't clear enough, please let me know and I'll gladly do a better set of photos for you.

Picking up this buckle and looking at it, the tactile quality of the metals used, the style of lettering and placement in the reverse and most definitely the smaller second piece being if a different weight metal was a true giveaway it wasn't going to be real. Momma knew her Southern privatives, Sterling, linens, dishes and fine furniture- she wasn't exactly into Civil War relics but she loved Daddy dearly and supported his interest. Granted, when his dug bottle collection got a bit out of hand, she did um, "suggest" he relocate it to the Utility room which had the ladder to the Attic in it. But, any old books, signs, metal bits and bobs she'd always pick up for him.

Photos loaded backwards- sorry. The information came from the Director of the Confederate Naval Museum in Columbus, Georgia.
View attachment 380469

View attachment 380470

View attachment 380471

View attachment 380472

View attachment 380473

View attachment 380474

View attachment 380475

View attachment 380476

View attachment 380477

View attachment 380478

View attachment 380479

View attachment 380480

That was interesting. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Georgia]

@Package4 ,
Is the attached photograph an example of a true item that you were describing above? The leather loop areas are unadorned and the OPs are fancy. Which should be considered the correct or real example. And, I completely understand you're at a disadvantage by not being able to see the OP's example clearer and not handling either.

And, which style of a two piece is correct?
Is it the inserted and twisted style or the hook style? Sorry, I don't know the appropriate names for the various styles.

 

[UCVRelics]

There are no better photos. There are only 3 photos in the listing and none of them show the front of the plate which is an old auction house trick. Here is the best I can do but it is not a CSN plate and USN is iffy as there is a lot on the front of this plate.

 

[Package4]

I keep finding similar but they have a rope instead of the raised line encircling the inside image.
So, I'm familiar with the centennial repros- am I interpreting what you're saying is that this particular pattern was made for the US and issued in 1852.
Then, it was reissued sometimes between 1861-1890? So, would this piece would not be considered Civil War issue?
Trying to wrap my head around this stuff...

Based on the details of the real buckles ( at least online they say they're real) and this example show by the OP, the eagle wings look really lacking of detail. Would the portion where the belt leather would go through be decorated in the manner of the example in the OP's photo?

I know there's a good bit to consider when looking at old pieces, but I've noticed a general lack of continuity in the decoration on the areas where the leather loops through- and the detail work on the acanthus/wreath leaves encircling the center detail as two give away areas. Do you have any advice for those who are getting into this area and don't want to make too many mistakes. I personally wouldn't hold you responsible for getting burned using your advice as I know there are so many areas to check. But I'd be most appreciative if you could help educate the lot of us as to what we should be looking for. It's just not practical to carry a reference book with you while junking.

There were two types of pattern 1852 Naval buckles, one for general service and one for officers. Since officers had to supply their own uniforms and accouterments, standardization suffered. Officer's buckles are found with and without ornate loops.

One thing I noticed from the picture is that the anchor line goes across the disk border, leading me to believe that the buckle is not a tongue disk interlocking buckle as most were.

One of the best reference sites, for those that do not want to purchase reference books (though I strongly encourage the books), is Relicman's site. Harry has been detecting for decades and his site is invaluable for determining buttons, buckles and other. Www.relicman.com

Happy hunting

 

[Jonl51]

Yes, CSA Navy. Beware as they were reproduced in the 60's in England. Fakes are marked Higginbotton and Billups on the reverse of the larger of the two pieces.

Saying all this and looking at this example, I will say the casting of the laurel leaves encircling the button, appear to be more similar to the style of an original. However, I'm concerned as the originals I've researched has the larger portion of the 2 pieces reversed with the anchor/cannon crossed in the center at 180 degrees from the one you are sharing. Maybe the photo got "flipped?" Any photos of the reverse and if there is a lozenge style soldered hook on the reverse? Would be interested to see the back of the piece just for good measure.


I have a copy/fake one thatMomma picked up in a box lot at an estate sale from an old home in Commerce, Georgia in the early '80's. CSA naval goods being so scarce, she hoped she'd gotten something good for Daddy's collection. But, for $5, it wasn't a huge monetary risk.

I have the fake buckle and paperwork which Daddy got from the museum in Columbus, Ga ( I think it is) explaining good ones and bad ones. ( new vs. fake)

Would you like me to take photos of all this info and share with you?

Georgia,
Thank you for posting the pictures of your father's naval buckle and all of the helpful information. I only have the pictures supplied by the seller and they are not clear. Jonl51

 

[UCVRelics]

There were two types of pattern 1852 Naval buckles, one for general service and one for officers. Since officers had to supply their own uniforms and accouterments, standardization suffered. Officer's buckles are found with and without ornate loops.

One thing I noticed from the picture is that the anchor line goes across the disk border, leading me to believe that the buckle is not a tongue disk interlocking buckle as most were.

One of the best reference sites, for those that do not want to purchase reference books (though I strongly encourage the books), is Relicman's site. Harry has been detecting for decades and his site is invaluable for determining buttons, buckles and other. Www.relicman.com

Happy hunting

I agree its not a 2 piece tongue and wreath

 

[Jonl51]

There are no better photos. There are only 3 photos in the listing and none of them show the front of the plate which is an old auction house trick. Here is the best I can do but it is not a CSN plate and USN is iffy as there is a lot on the front of this plate.
View attachment 380485View attachment 380486

Ucvrelics,
Yes those are the only posted pictures. The sword belt rig looks good, guessing the buckle is authentic then too ,but what it is exactly is up for grabs. Thank you all. Jonl51