C = Condemned?

[RSMorris]

I've read there was a moratorium on the government selling weapons after the Civil War due to issues with Mexico.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I've read there was a moratorium on the government selling weapons after the Civil War due to issues with Mexico.

So I have heard.

 

[RSMorris]

Found this old Irish Song about their Fenian Guns.

the lyrics:
It hung above the kitchen fire. It's barrel long and brown
And one day with a boy's desire, I climbed and took it down
My father's eyes in anger flashed. He said ""what have you done?!
I wish you'd left it where it was, That's my old Fenian gun""

I fondled it with love and pride. I looked it o'er and o'er
I placed it on my shoulder And I marched across the floor
My father's anger softened And he shared my boyish fun
"Ah, well"" he said "'tis in your breed like that old Fenian gun"

I remember '67 well when lads like you and me
All thought we'd strike another blow to set old Ireland free
But broken were our golden hopes I was long months on the run
But it did good work for Ireland then that brown old Fenian gun

I was down then in Killaluk t'was the hottest fight of all
And you can see he burned his arm there's a mark still on the ball
I hope the young lads growing now will hold the ground we won
And not disgrace the cause in which I held that Fenian gun

I placed it o'er the fire once more. I heard my father sigh
I knew his thoughts were turning back on days now long gone by
And then I vowed within my heart I'll be my father's son
And if ever Ireland wants my aid I'll hold the Fenian gun

That's years ago I've grown a man And I've weathered many a gale
This last long year's been spent inside a gloomy English jail
I've done my part I'll do it still Until the fight is won
When Ireland's free she'll bless the men Who held the Fenian gun

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

This song is about the attack on a policy barracks in County Limerick, Ireland in 1867

 

[Don Dixon]

I've read there was a moratorium on the government selling weapons after the Civil War due to issues with Mexico.

So I have heard.

Where ever you read it, its wrong. The U.S. Army began disposing of surplus arms almost immediately after the last shots were fired. For example, Watervliet Arsenal sold 4,752 Austrian shoulder arms on 2 October 1865, Frankford Arsenal sold 3,736 on 4 October, and Indianapolis Arsenal sold 3,756 on 26 October. There were similar sales across the entire range of ordnance in the Army's inventory, to include artillery. (RG156, Entries 124 and 125, NARA)

Regarding Mexico, in addition sending Sherman and 50,000 men to the Mexican border, I suspect that the U.S. government also clandestinely supplied arms to the Juarista forces fighting the French and Napoleon III's puppet Mexican emperor Maximillian.

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Where ever you read it, its wrong. The U.S. Army began disposing of surplus arms almost immediately after the last shots were fired. For example, Watervliet Arsenal sold 4,752 Austrian shoulder arms on 2 October 1865, Frankford Arsenal sold 3,736 on 4 October, and Indianapolis Arsenal sold 3,756 on 26 October. There were similar sales across the entire range of ordnance in the Army's inventory, to include artillery. (RG156, Entries 124 and 125, NARA)

Regarding Mexico, in addition sending Sherman and 50,000 men to the Mexican border, I suspect that the U.S. government also clandestinely supplied arms to the Juarista forces fighting the French and Napoleon III's puppet Mexican emperor Maximillian.

Regards,
Don Dixon

Obviously, RSMorris and I both read that same source - likely that detailed article in the journal of the Society of Military Historians on the Fenian arms. The article says there was a ban on selling arms imposed by Secretary of War Edwin Stanton at the end of the War, and says that this was because of unrest in Mexico, citing John Y. Simon, ed, The Papers of Ulysses S. Grant, University of Southern Illinois, 1988, vol. 16: xxiv. I don't have this reference, and so can't check the cite myself, but
It would be interesting to know about those early sales by the Army. I would guess that the US would not want to sell to a group, the Fenians, who were planning to attack the British! Note that the Fenians didn't buy from the US - they bought from a private contractor who had more M1861 and M1863 rifle-muskets available than any other manufacturer when the Fenians came to purchase in Movember 1865. I would bet that there were willing buyers lining up to buy quality surplus arms (some new and never issued, I believe), and so I bet there was some vetting going on by the US Army to determine who got the first / best arms.

 

[RSMorris]

Where ever you read it, its wrong. The U.S. Army began disposing of surplus arms almost immediately after the last shots were fired. For example, Watervliet Arsenal sold 4,752 Austrian shoulder arms on 2 October 1865, Frankford Arsenal sold 3,736 on 4 October, and Indianapolis Arsenal sold 3,756 on 26 October. There were similar sales across the entire range of ordnance in the Army's inventory, to include artillery. (RG156, Entries 124 and 125, NARA)

Regarding Mexico, in addition sending Sherman and 50,000 men to the Mexican border, I suspect that the U.S. government also clandestinely supplied arms to the Juarista forces fighting the French and Napoleon III's puppet Mexican emperor Maximillian.

Regards,
Don Dixon

Can you post exactly what it says or better yet a link?

 

[Don Dixon]

Can you post exactly what it says or better yet a link?

I gave you the link. (RG) Record Group 156 (Records of the Office of the Chief of Ordnance), Entry 124 (Abstract of Reports of Sales of Ordnance Stores at Depots and Arsenals, 1864-1907), and Entry 125 (Journals of Ordnance Sales at Arsenals and Depots, 1865-1894). Feel free to go to NARA (the National Archives) and read thorough all of the enormous 17 ledgers in these two entries. After all, the Ordnance Office disposed of several million surplus Civil War and post-Civil War weapons in that period. In the computer age there are still things that aren't on-line and that you have to examine to do real research.

It would be interesting to know about those early sales by the Army. I would guess that the US would not want to sell to a group.

Most of the large sales were through "open" auctions [Based upon auction pricing and the division of the spoils, I suspect the major surplus dealers like Böker and Company; Schuyler, Hartley, and Graham; Bannerman; Samuel R. Starr; etc., were conspiring together to rig the auctions and divide the wealth in a mutually agreeable fashion. But that is another story entirely.] The Army was willing to sell to anyone who was willing to pay the price. If you out bid the scrap dealers, for example, you could buy artillery up to siege gun size and fully live ammunition for it [So much for the gun control argument that citizens historically weren't permitted to own heavy weapons.] The Army sold almost 300,000 Enfields, Springfields, and Austrians to the Ottoman Empire, where most of them were transformed to Snider variant breechloaders. Then there were the enormous sales of muzzleloading and breechloading arms to speculators who sold to the French during the Franco-Prussian War.

I'm still awaiting the photographs you promised to send me.

 

[RSMorris]

Thank you for the condescension there. Much appreciated. I am over 60 years old. I fully understand not everything is on-line that is why I said,.... can you.

 

[Don Dixon]

Thank you for the condescension there. Much appreciated. I am over 60 years old. I fully understand not everything is on-line that is why I said,.... can you.

And I'm 75. You asked for "exactly" what 17 massive ordnance ledgers said.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Nicely enough, I am about half-way between your two ages!
As Don Dixon says, the ordnance records are heavy enough to press a person to death if stacked on top of that person's chest.
I would say that the question isn't whether there were arms sold, but how many arms were available to the Fenians when they sought to purchase 7,500 model 1861s in November, 1865. Since they were trying to keep their plans secret from the US authorities, I would think they were not wanting to bid in an open sale directly from the US Army!

 

[RSMorris]

And I'm 75. You asked for "exactly" what 17 massive ordnance ledgers said.

LMAO.... sorry I asked. I am learning quickly here who I can ask and who are too elitest.

 

[RSMorris]

Nicely enough, I am about half-way between your two ages!
As Don Dixon says, the ordnance records are heavy enough to press a person to death if stacked on top of that person's chest.
I would say that the question isn't whether there were arms sold, but how many arms were available to the Fenians when they sought to by 7,500 model 1861s in late 1865 and early 1866. Since they were trying to keep their plans secret from the US authorities, I would think they were not wanting to bid in an open sale directly from the US Army!

"disposed of" can mean different things. Could mean destroyed, dumped in a lake, burned, melted, given/sold to other countries. Doesn't make much sense the armories would start selling war weapons by the thousands with the same same territory they were just at war with right next door..

 

[Don Dixon]

Doesn't make much sense the armories would start selling war weapons by the thousands with the same same territory they were just at war with right next door..

It doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. I've told you what the U.S. Army did and the sources that document it. I provided adequate information to document that what you and Jeff "read" was wrong. It also didn't make sense for the U.S. Army to begin its massive demobilization almost immediately after the the two grand reviews in Washington on 23-4 May 1865, but it did. All you need to do to document that is to look at the volunteer unit discharge dates in Dyer's Compendium of the War of the Rebellion. The war was over, they were bled out, they wanted done with everything associated with it, and they wanted to go home.

The K.K.K. was another matter, but the assumption appears to have been that honorable men who had surrendered would go home and resume honorable lives. Bobby Lee did. Others didn't.

As for "elitist," I deal where ever possible in archival sources. If you prefer:

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance​

 

[RSMorris]

The KKK??? Good lord, where does that come into any of this?

 

[BBurkett]

The US Govt inspectors were using a "large C" at first for condemned parts and stamping them in conspicuous locations. Eli Whitney Jr complained that the use of such a large C would hurt his commercial and state sales so the Govt inspectors started using a lowercase "c" I've noted several locations most notably tang, barrel, inside of lock and rear sight left side. The nosecap location is new to me.

 

[RSMorris]

I have now found 4 c's on this particular Bridesburg Fenian M1863. I think they are kinda cool. It helps verify what has been said about these particular weapons that were sold to the Fenians. Have now found one Springfield with the Needham conversion. Another that was apparantely given to a Bridesburg employee which makes no sense at all since Jenks/Bridesburg had nothing to do with the alteration. Have also found another one that was issued to the State of New York with New York on the lock.

 

[RSMorris]

The US Govt inspectors were using a "large C" at first for condemned parts and stamping them in conspicuous locations. Eli Whitney Jr complained that the use of such a large C would hurt his commercial and state sales so the Govt inspectors started using a lowercase "c" I've noted several locations most notably tang, barrel, inside of lock and rear sight left side. The nosecap location is new to me.View attachment 451035View attachment 451036View attachment 451037

Is this on a Bridesburg?