C = Condemned?

[RSMorris]

Was looking for markings on my M1863 or M1861, haven't firgured that out yet. It has a M1863 hammer and screwed barrel bands but does not have the swell in the ramrod channel. I think it has the later hammer because it was converted to the needham trapdoor system. But I am wondering about two "C" markings I have found. One is on the nose cap and the other on the butt cap. I know in a lot of arms this means condemned. I know on some Bridesburgs there is an "O" on the lock. I still think this is a condemned marking, some think it is a Fenian mark. But why would there be a "C" on the two caps and not on the lock if it was condemned? This is assuming "C" means condemned. I know a lot of Bridesburgs that were surplus and/or condemned wer sold to the Fenians for their activities. That is the reason I bought this one was for the Fenian Connection. Any ideas what these C's mean?

 

[Cornpone and Molasses]

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/how-did-the-inspector-marks-system-work.107934/?amp=1
See post #17

 

[Cornpone and Molasses]

There is always the slight chance it could be a sub inspection stamp. There have been a few like that but I believe it is rare.

 

[RSMorris]

There is always the slight chance it could be a sub inspection stamp. There have been a few like that but I believe it is rare.

Is it just the part the C is on is condemned? I would think they would shy away from using "C" as an inspector mark if it also meant condemned.

 

[BarryR]

Is it a carbine by chance...?

 

[RSMorris]

Is it a carbine by chance...?

No it is not. Its a full length Bridesburg M1861/63.

 

[Craig L Barry]

I am not certain what the "C" might mean here, but I am reasonably certain that condemned US Government arms were marked I.C. And I believe that stands for "Inspected/Condemned." It was used when an item was declared obsolete or unserviceable.

 

[Cornpone and Molasses]

I am not certain what the "C" might mean here, but I am reasonably certain that condemned US Government arms were marked I.C. And I believe that stands for "Inspected/Condemned." It was used when an item was declared obsolete or unserviceable.

I have read that too. That's why I was thinking a sub-inspectors mark.

 

[RSMorris]

I am not certain what the "C" might mean here, but I am reasonably certain that condemned US Government arms were marked I.C. And I believe that stands for "Inspected/Condemned." It was used when an item was declared obsolete or unserviceable.

I will look around and see if I can find a sub inspector at Bridesburg that may fit the bill. Thank you for your input.

 

[RSMorris]

I have read that too. That's why I was thinking a sub-inspectors mark.

Thank you for helping out with this.....

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

C stamped on parts such as these means "condemned"
Bridesburg made more rifle-muskets than any facility, other than Springfield.
After the War, Bridesburg had thousands of parts and completed arms, just waiting for sellers.
When the Fenians went looking for arms, Bridesburg was the only company with so many available.

 

[RSMorris]

C stamped on parts such as these means "condemned"
Bridesburg made more rifle-muskets than any facility, other than Springfield.
After the War, Bridesburg had thousands of parts and completed arms, just waiting for sellers.
When the Fenians went looking for arms, Bridesburg was the only company with so many available.

Thanks for your reply. Just trying to understand the logic or order of this. Was someone at Bridesburg doing the condemning or the government? If this nose cap was on a rifle and the government inspector found something he didn't like, lets say on the nose cap, he would stamp the cap and condemn the entire rifle? I mean, how would that work?

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Here is a recent article in the NRA Rifleman about these guns. It's based a on a more comprehensive article I also commend to your attention.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Erin’s Hope: The Fenian Needham Conversion Rifle

During the second invasion of Canada in 1870, the Fenian forces relied on several thousand Needham breech-loading converted rifle-muskets to go up against Canadian defenses. Yet, just how well did these Needham conversions work?

www.americanrifleman.org

They explain that Bridesburg was the only company that had lots of surplus guns and / or parts available to sell just after the War. The Fenians would accept sub-standard aka condemned parts and that's a lot of what they got.
It was common in the industry to mark the substandard parts with a "C" as they were checked as parts so they could not be run through the inspection system again. Various marks were used at different times and places in condemn parts and condemn entire guns....but you can be sure no one would just mark a C on a nosecap as way to condemn an entire gun.

 

[RSMorris]

Here is a recent article in the NRA Rifleman about these guns. It's based a on a more comprehensive article I also commend to your attention.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Erin’s Hope: The Fenian Needham Conversion Rifle

During the second invasion of Canada in 1870, the Fenian forces relied on several thousand Needham breech-loading converted rifle-muskets to go up against Canadian defenses. Yet, just how well did these Needham conversions work?

www.americanrifleman.org

They explain that Bridesburg was the only company that had lots of surplus guns and / or parts available to sell just after the War. The Fenians would accept sub-standard aka condemned parts and that's a lot of what they got.
It was common in the industry to mark the substandard parts with a "C" as they were checked as parts so they could not be run through the inspection system again. Various marks were used at different times and places in condemn parts and condemn entire guns....but you can be sure no one would just mark a C on a nosecap as way to condemn an entire gun.

That article was fascinating. I thought I had already swept the internet for Fenian articles and books, but had not seen that one. For some reason this Fenian period has me fascinated. My Fenian Needham and my Belgian M1815 are my two favorites. The Springfield Trapdoor comes in third. I also found out from the article mine is serial number 448. And I found in addition to the nose cap and the butt cap, the center barrel band has a "C" Love this stuff..... It is funny how, not that long ago, people thought the "IN" meant Indiana. I ordered the parent article that article came from. Pic is the serial number with the corresponding number on the hammer wedge. From Google Earth are the pics of the former musket factory, railway factory, and now top secret location where the conversion was made from muzzle loader to breech loader. The building is now a restaurant. Will have to take a trip up there and eat, maybe see if I can get a pic of my Fenian rifle in front of the restaurant.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

RSMorris:
This article is a condensed version of a more comprehensive one from the Society of Military Historians; I think this one is available on line.
One interesting thing I learned is an explanation of the various markings or non markings found on these.
The longer article notes that "Most Fenian Needham conversion rifles have an "IN" stamped on their stocks, between the lock plate screws, while a few others have "IR" marked in the same location, and some others have no markings at all."
There was a basic split in the Fenian Brotherhood, partly on the question of when (and not whether) to invade Canada (there was another split on whether attacks should be made on Canada at all.)
The "O'Mahony Wing" stamped arms with the IR under the Shamrock.
The "Roberts-Sweeny Wing" stamped arms with the IN mark.
and some arms purchased from various sources have no Fenian markings at all.
All Needham conversions were done by the Fenians - the Needhams are the only model gun made exclusively for the cause of Irish freedom!
Many have the stock cut under the middle band - only the Fenians did this.
Here's a photo of the stock cut on my Needham.

 

[RSMorris]

RSMorris:
This article is a condensed version of a more comprehensive one from the Society of Military Historians; I think this one is available on line.
One interesting thing I learned is an explanation of the various markings or non markings found on these.
The longer article notes that "Most Fenian Needham conversion rifles have an "IN" stamped on their stocks, between the lock plate screws, while a few others have "IR" marked in the same location, and some others have no markings at all."
There was a basic split in the Fenian Brotherhood, partly on the question of when (and not whether) to invade Canada (there was another split on whether attacks should be made on Canada at all.)
The "O'Mahony Wing" stamped arms with the IR under the Shamrock.
The "Roberts-Sweeny Wing" stamped arms with the IN mark.
and some arms purchased from various sources have no Fenian markings at all.
All Needham conversions were done by the Fenians - the Needhams are the only model gun made exclusively for the cause of Irish freedom!
Many have the stock cut under the middle band - only the Fenians did this.
Here's a photo of the stock cut on my Needham.

View attachment 450045

I read the article and ordered the base article it came from, was only 6 bucks. Mine does not have the cut. Thank you so much for posting that article. It answered a lot of questions. Never thought I would be GLAD to see condemned parts but in this case it makes for even more fascinating history. Out of curiosity what is the serial number of yours? Just wondering the serial number range the cut was made in the stock. I think these needham guns are cool because not only were they bought by the Fenians for the 1866 raids but then only 5020 were converted for the 1870 raids as well.

 

[RSMorris]

I get the original from S.M.H, wow what a detailed article.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

My Needham's hammer is numbered 130 on the back flat of the firing pin.
It is a great article, isn't it.
It is based on some serious research using original sources, and so much of the stuff written on these in the past was pretty sketchy and unreliable. This is the real stuff.
I once had a Colt 1860 what had a presentation from a Massachusetts "Circle" of the Fenian Brotherhood, and studying the Fenians, I was surprised how large and politically powerful this Irish Nationalist group had been in this country.

 

[RSMorris]

Have also found the barrel tang was condemned. So on this one, the nose cap, butt cap, two barrel bands and the barrel tang were condemend. So I guess that proves as both articles state, they were assembled with condemned parts. I think that just adds to the story.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

The typical "Gun Show Story" is that the US was awash in surplus rifle-muskets after the Civil War. True, but not immediately after the War! When the Fenians were buying rifle-muskets in early 1866, the surplus arms had not yet flooded the civilian market, and so the only source was the Jenks firm, (Bridesburg) which had during the War made more of these than any contractor (for some reason, you will see Bridesburg mentioned as a rare maker - but in fact Bridesburg was the LARGEST maker), so had surplus arms, and lots of parts, including all those condemned parts left over from the US inspection days)