Broken ramrod in barrell

[robert hayden]

our unit has as company musket, haven't looked at it yet, that is inoperable. Think it's an 1853 Enfield.
I'm told the ramrod broke about three quarters down the barrell. I looked at an exploded view & saw a part listed as a breech plug. From this, I would assume you could remove the stock from the barrel, remove the
breech plug, then attempt to force the remaining broke piece out. Am told there is no powder or ball loaded.
Any comments or suggestions ?

Further have a 1863 Springfield and a 1853 Enfield that both may require mainspring replacements. Anyone
know if the Armisport & Euroarms replacement springs are interchangable for the Springfield and/or the Enfield ?

 

[unicornforge]

The ramrods that I have seen have moved freely within their intended rifle or pistol. Personally, I would not assume or believe that there is no powder or ball loaded, after all, the ramrod is apparently the wrong size and someone was trying to ram something down the barrel. I would suggest taking the rifle to a gunsmith to first flush out any possible powder that may or may not remain in the barrel, and also have him/her remove the ramrod. If I had to fix it myself, I would replace the barrel and toss the old one, as it is just not worth the risk to one's health and welfare.

Just my opinion, and my way of looking at things.

http://www.blockaderunner.com/Catalog/parts.html
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/1853-3-band-enfield.html

 

[Frederick14Va]

Is the company in question a reenactment group or a NSSA skirmisher organization?...

If NSSA higher probability the weapon may still be loaded..

If reenactment group less likely the weapon is loaded with a projectile... Ramrod use is usually restricted only to be used in cleaning-swabbing the barrel.. So less likely to have a powder charge in it... Not totally uncommon that at least one person in a company uses a swab cloth too large.. when flushing-swabbing the barrel using the ramrod.... may go in just fine... but cloth may become wedged when being pulled back out. Some of the reproduction ramrods are made of more than one piece.. put enough torque on it... it may detach or break. Regardless of the charge probabilities I would still pull the cone/nipple and flush the barrel through the vent hole behind the obstruction just in case.

Only real solution is as mentioned is have the breach plug pulled... If one hasn't done this before I suggest only allow a knowledgeable gunsmith do this. Yes there is a special tool that's made to do this, otherwise may risk damaging the plug and/or threads.

 

[DR_Hanna]

Ramrod use is usually restricted only to be used in cleaning-swabbing the barrel..

I'm curious, can you expand on this? Do reenactors just dump the powder down the barrell, place a cap and fire without ramming a wad down on the charge?

 

[Poor Private]

Heres my take, and a story on it. Several years ago during weapons inspection in our civil war reenactment unit the 1st Sgt. was inspecting the lines weapons. While this was going on the company commander per units rules inspected the 1st. sgt. weapon. Everyone in the uit passed except the sargs weapon. Seems that his hadn't been cleaned and the ramrod wouldn't go do the barrel except for about a foot, he was told he couldn't take the feild until his was clean enough to accept the ramrod. He left for home( he lived nearby) and we havn't seen him since.
Now my take on the gun, since it's the company loaner I bet this gun hasn't been cleaned in several outing. And when it was finally inspected the ramrod got stuck on the crud, and broke while someone tried to remove it. My first attempt would be to try to give it a cleaning with a good Black powder cleaning such as Plus9, and let it soak for a bit, and them lube it and it might just slide out. If not then the breech plug removal should work.
If this gun was an Enfield it's not surprising that the ramrod broke. 99% of all reproduction Enfields their ramrods are in 2 pieces and pressed together. You cannot put the 2 back together or secure them if the get loose, welding just creates a mess, and trying to glue won't work. Best bet is to throw away and spend 20 bucks for a new one, or more for a 1 piecer.

 

[kevikens]

I'm curious, can you expand on this? Do reenactors just dump the powder down the barrell, place a cap and fire without ramming a wad down on the charge?

When I first started doing reenacting in the early 1970's we commonly stuffed the empty paper cartridge down the barrel either as a crumpled ball that fell into the barrel or with our thumb a few inches as wadding. This was Rev War reenacting and the .72 or .69 barrels let us do this. Never tried it with a .58. Made a more impressive bang. Sometime later we stopped that and just dumped the powder down the barrel. What we never did when doing a battle reenactment was ram the paper down the barrel. Too much of a chance someone would forget to withdraw the rammer, just like in real Civil war engagements.

 

[Tin cup]

Broke, or came apart? Repro ramrods are usually made in two pieces, soldered together near the "head". (Tulip end) and often times will come apart. Being a welder, I have on several occasions taken folk's repro ranmrods and welded them solid, and filed down the weld area, and reshaped the head to more original looking specs. There would be a lot less trouble if the producers of repro muskets would make the rammer's solid. The picture I posted shows my 1842 rammer after I welded the joint area solid, and before final clean-up and reshaping.

Kevin Dally

 

[Poor Private]

When I first started doing reenacting in the early 1970's we commonly stuffed the empty paper cartridge down the barrel either as a crumpled ball that fell into the barrel or with our thumb a few inches as wadding. This was Rev War reenacting and the .72 or .69 barrels let us do this. Never tried it with a .58. Made a more impressive bang. Sometime later we stopped that and just dumped the powder down the barrel. What we never did when doing a battle reenactment was ram the paper down the barrel. Too much of a chance someone would forget to withdraw the rammer, just like in real Civil war engagements.

The only time paper is usually stuffed down and rammed is at the first shot of a reenactment or during a parade. We call these parade loads. One major reason I don't( heck I hate them) like them is when you do a fire by company, it looks like a dam n ticker tape parade in New York. Paper rains down everywhere and it looks so hooky. We also do another parade load tho it's doubleing up the powder and then ramming the powder going from 60 grains to 120 grains. makes a bigger bang, but doesn't really affect the weapon due to no pressure from trying to expel a bullit.

 

[kevikens]

The only time paper is usually stuffed down and rammed is at the first shot of a reenactment or during a parade. We call these parade loads. One major reason I don't( heck I hate them) like them is when you do a fire by company, it looks like a dam n ticker tape parade in New York. Paper rains down everywhere and it looks so hooky. We also do another parade load tho it's doubleing up the powder and then ramming the powder going from 60 grains to 120 grains. makes a bigger bang, but doesn't really affect the weapon due to no pressure from trying to expel a bullit.

By the way, I forgot something that your remark about the parade reminded me of. Once in a parade we did that before starting out, ramming the charge with the paper wadding. Somehow one of the guys rammed a full unopened cartridge down the barrel on top of a charge. It was a good thing this was not a reenactment. Rev War battle lines are pretty close, maybe 40 yards or so. Anyway, with the muzzles safely elevated we fired a volley. The unopened cartridge came out the barrel in a blur, slowed down, on fire, and then exploded some two seconds later about 75 feet above the street. Spectacular airburst. Looked like flak alley over Haiphong. The crowd, thinking it a part of the festivities , broke into applause and cheers. Our commander turned whiter than our woolen stockings or chalked cross belts , but quickly recovered and waved to the crowd like it was all planned that way. Later that day we had a review of safety procedures.

 

[hrobalabama]

I make up blank loads with nitrated paper. You can soak paper in a solution of saltpeter let dry. I always use a ram rod to be sure all the charge is fully seated. For blanks you can also use cigarette papers.
On removing the breach plug. You disassemble the barrel from the stock. You should use a gunsmiths barrel vise.I have used copper between the jaws of a heavy vise.The breech plug is threaded into the barrel. There mare match marks on the underside. I use a large crescent wrench. Right hand threads. Some unscrew fairly easy. If it is tight, make sure there is no powder in the barrel, and apply heat with a torch to the barrel end to expand the metal.

 

[Camp Randall Armory]

Also, mainsprings generally are not interchangeable between brands and model types so your best bet is just to get the exact spring that you need.

 

[robert hayden]

Is the company in question a reenactment group or a NSSA skirmisher organization?...

If NSSA higher probability the weapon may still be loaded..

If reenactment group less likely the weapon is loaded with a projectile... Ramrod use is usually restricted only to be used in cleaning-swabbing the barrel.. So less likely to have a powder charge in it... Not totally uncommon that at least one person in a company uses a swab cloth too large.. when flushing-swabbing the barrel using the ramrod.... may go in just fine... but cloth may become wedged when being pulled back out. Some of the reproduction ramrods are made of more than one piece.. put enough torque on it... it may detach or break. Regardless of the charge probabilities I would still pull the cone/nipple and flush the barrel through the vent hole behind the obstruction just in case.

Only real solution is as mentioned is have the breach plug pulled... If one hasn't done this before I suggest only allow a knowledgeable gunsmith do this. Yes there is a special tool that's made to do this, otherwise may risk damaging the plug and/or threads.

assume this became problematic during cleaning after firing powder only. Someone used an oversized patch which caused the ramrod tip to become immoble. Further attempts to dislodge the ramrod probably resulted in the end being broken off. Since this occurred during the cleaning process, minimal if any powder would be in the chamber. For safety's sake it would be wise to pull the nipple & flush the chamber as throughly as possible. Had thouight about the possibility of pouring some solution down the barren to soak? the patch & thus corrode it & possibly allow the broken tip to fall out,...drano ? some sort of diluted acid ? vinegar ? A long shot. Thanks for the confirmation on the exhistance of the breech plug,..& from what has been said on the forum, it would be best to allow a gunsmith to achieve it's removal. Thank you for all the helpful & insightful imput to all who replied.

 

[Frederick14Va]

I'm curious, can you expand on this? Do reenactors just dump the powder down the barrell, place a cap and fire without ramming a wad down on the charge?

In past decades in the hobby Infantry lines... it wasn't unusual to allow the first loading (while still staged and not engaged yet) to be wadded and rammed. This especially if you had to travel to a further distant position before the battle event started. Otherwise while "on the line" engaged, wadding or ramrod use was not allowed for obvious safety reasons. However over time it was found that many started using various "fillers" in the cartridge ends... paper wads, shredded paper... cotton balls etc... to fill the section of the cartridge the projectile would be.. thus have a more correct length of cartridge that would sit up properly and be more accessible in the cartridge box... Unfortunately this sometimes resulted in flaming cotton balls and debris being expelled with a volley... So at most reputable events this practice was ceased years ago... Yes reenactors just pour the powder down the barrel, cap and fire... has been the standard practice for many decades.

 

[frankconrad]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. With a two piece ramrod that has came apart, I silver solder the the ramrod togather. just a minor clean up job to finish up.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

I bought a used Enfield on the cheap that has a similar problem. The previous owner had put too large of a patch in the jagg and it got stuck when he reached the bottom of the breech. Because Italian ramrods are 2 pieces that are crimped together when he strained to pull it out he lost the bottom end of the ramrod.

A pard of mine ended up getting a large drill bit extender and was able to drill into the base of the remaining ramrod and was able to twist the cloth around enough that he was able to pull it out. 5 minutes with a tig welder later, and the ramrod and gun were as good as new.

Hope that helps,
Garrett Glover

 

[Jobe Holiday]

For those who may not know this, the slot in the head of British ram rods is not, repeat NOT, for a cleaning patch! It is one of the longest held misconceptions regarding Civil War arms and has been the cause of more reenacting grief than you could ever imagine!

It is a "Tool Slot" for inserting the screw driver end of the musket tool into so that the rod can be twisted to screw the ball puller into the nose of a loaded bullet in order to remove the ball and charge. This was done usually when the soldiers came off guard duty, or the times when a loaded musket wouldn't go off.
J.

 

[DR_Hanna]

This was done usually when the soldiers came off guard duty,

Thanks for that tid bit.
It never occurred to me that this would have been done as a matter of course. You'd think its a lot of work compared to just firing it into the ground, but I suppose that having to clean the gun afterwards was a bigger chore. Shooting near armies is always a bad idea, too.

 

[gunny]

assume this became problematic during cleaning after firing powder only. Someone used an oversized patch which caused the ramrod tip to become immoble. Further attempts to dislodge the ramrod probably resulted in the end being broken off. Since this occurred during the cleaning process, minimal if any powder would be in the chamber. For safety's sake it would be wise to pull the nipple & flush the chamber as throughly as possible. Had thouight about the possibility of pouring some solution down the barren to soak? the patch & thus corrode it & possibly allow the broken tip to fall out,...drano ? some sort of diluted acid ? vinegar ? A long shot. Thanks for the confirmation on the exhistance of the breech plug,..& from what has been said on the forum, it would be best to allow a gunsmith to achieve it's removal. Thank you for all the helpful & insightful imput to all who replied.

I had the same thing happen to my 1853 Enfield years ago. Just take off the rings and unscrew the barrel. You'll need clamps and vice grips to unscrew the breech plug. It IS TIGHT. I hammered my rammer on through the breech opening. (Mine had not broken) Just screw the breech plug back and make sure it matches perfectly.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

I had meant to add that the head of the ram rod is not to be used to hold a cleaning patch, either. The only thing to be used, authentically, is the cleaning jag which you screw onto the threaded end of the ram rod.
J.