Bannerman's Civil War Surplus Question

[Stoney Dee]

While searching "army surplus" I found links regarding Bannerman Surplus Company. It seems that those Civil War era small arms are not desirable to collectors. I'm not seeking a working musket but would like it to be of the era. Would a "Bannerman" type be much less expensive than common original condition firearm, and would it be easy to tell by markings if the gun had been cobbled together from "spare parts"?

 

[Lead Snowstorm]

Depending upon how familiar you are with the original weapons involved, distinguishing a parts gun could be the work of an instant, noting discrepancies by sheer pattern recognition; or it could require extensive hands-on examination.

And as far as price goes, all things being equal and all buyers being rational, a parts gun should go for less (far less...??) than an original condition specimen. That being said, not all things are equal, and not all buyers are adequately informed and acting rationally/non-emotionally (not excepting myself on occasion!).

"Bannerman's," of course, has become somewhat of a catch-all for non-arsenal modified civilian weapons of the era similar to the way "Bubba" is blamed for all the 20th century sporterized milsurps.

It might help if you could give an idea of exactly what you're looking for - a trapdoor? Yes, there are some quick checks like barrel length, sight types, and lockplate markings that can throw up red flags. One of the frankenguns incorporating some 1903 parts, some 1917 parts, and some Krag parts? Yes, those surely stand out - fascinating that some of them work at all. Get a load of this weapon, for instance.

 

[Stoney Dee]

It might help if you could give an idea of exactly what you're looking for - a trapdoor?

It seems that the most used during ACW were the 1861 Springfield and the 1853 Enfield, perhaps I should study more about those two, and research typical current values for an original condition and then try to source a "kind-of- accurate" musket (or maybe both) that would be for me a wallhanger.

 

[JoeCollector]

Hey Stoney, Buy yourself the book " Civil War Guns" by William Edwards. It's an old book , but it covers a lot and is still relevant .It's not over priced on the used book sites .

 

[History hoarder63]

While searching "army surplus" I found links regarding Bannerman Surplus Company. It seems that those Civil War era small arms are not desirable to collectors. I'm not seeking a working musket but would like it to be of the era. Would a "Bannerman" type be much less expensive than common original condition firearm, and would it be easy to tell by markings if the gun had been cobbled together from "spare parts"?

I honestly don't think Bannerman spent a ton of time cobbling together muskets from spare parts. He literally had thousands of original surplus weapons in stock, a large portion of which were unissued. He did not have to scrounge around for stock to sell. He did however make some "cadet" muskets which were cut down versions of the standard weapon.

Bannerman did have parts but that was not a big part of his business and they often treated them as scrap. A lot of CW musket barrels were loaded on barges and sunk to make the breakwater for his artificial lagoon on Polopels Island Arsenal.

 

[Stoney Dee]

Hey Stoney, Buy yourself the book " Civil War Guns" by William Edwards. It's an old book , but it covers a lot and is still relevant .It's not over priced on the used book sites .

Thanks for the suggestion, book should arrive in about a week. It'll be my first book on ACW firearms and looks like it will be very helpful for my needs.

 

[johan_steele]

The books on small arms that we reference | Small Arms & Ammunition

I thought it might not be a bad idea to create a thread on small arms reference books. While I concentrate on the rifles, rifle muskets etc of the infantry I have other reference works. I want to encourage others to start showing off their favorite or most often used reference books. I'm...

civilwartalk.com

Take a look at the above thread, it has a plethora of books you can find on the subject. Some are out of print others are not. Edwards work is dated but still priceless. It will get you in the door so to speak. But for the collector the Moller work pictured on the above thread is a must have. It's a bit spendy but I believe reference material is vital. If a $100 reference book will keep you from making a $1000 mistake it is money well spent.

I own an original M1855 Rifle Musket put together from Bannerman parts in the early 1980's by one of the finest NSSA specialists of the age. To most not knowing it isn't 100% is not easy. It takes a good amount of familiarity and seeing and handling originals to understand the nuances of weight and balance. It is well worth going to one of the big shows and just browsing, you can learn a lot from learning and listening. And letting the dealers know what you are looking for can find you a lot more than you realize. MOst of the dealers at those shows are top notch... most. Also start looking at websites like College Hill Arsenal, Shiloh Relics, Gunderson Militaria, Lodgewood etc. for an idea of what various small arms fetch on the market.

Decide what exactly you want. A well used M1863 or 64 is considerably less expensive than a minty Spencer or Henry Rifle. Some people decide to collect just one manufacturer, others what catches their eye. IMO if you're going to get just one make it count. Get what you want and devil take the hindmost.

But I must warn you... if you get bit by the bug... it's addictive. But look at it this way: it's still cheaper than golf. Which is the willful misuse of a perfectly good rifle range.

 

[R. Porter]

The books on small arms that we reference | Small Arms & Ammunition

I thought it might not be a bad idea to create a thread on small arms reference books. While I concentrate on the rifles, rifle muskets etc of the infantry I have other reference works. I want to encourage others to start showing off their favorite or most often used reference books. I'm...

civilwartalk.com

Take a look at the above thread, it has a plethora of books you can find on the subject. Some are out of print others are not. Edwards work is dated but still priceless. It will get you in the door so to speak. But for the collector the Moller work pictured on the above thread is a must have. It's a bit spendy but I believe reference material is vital. If a $100 reference book will keep you from making a $1000 mistake it is money well spent.

I own an original M1855 Rifle Musket put together from Bannerman parts in the early 1980's by one of the finest NSSA specialists of the age. To most not knowing it isn't 100% is not easy. It takes a good amount of familiarity and seeing and handling originals to understand the nuances of weight and balance. It is well worth going to one of the big shows and just browsing, you can learn a lot from learning and listening. And letting the dealers know what you are looking for can find you a lot more than you realize. MOst of the dealers at those shows are top notch... most. Also start looking at websites like College Hill Arsenal, Shiloh Relics, Gunderson Militaria, Lodgewood etc. for an idea of what various small arms fetch on the market.

Decide what exactly you want. A well used M1863 or 64 is considerably less expensive than a minty Spencer or Henry Rifle. Some people decide to collect just one manufacturer, others what catches their eye. IMO if you're going to get just one make it count. Get what you want and devil take the hindmost.

But I must warn you... if you get bit by the bug... it's addictive. But look at it this way: it's still cheaper than golf. Which is the willful misuse of a perfectly good rifle range.

It's my impression that several minty wartime Springfields are still much less than a wartime Henry. In fact it seems to me that a Henry will start in the $13,000 range while a minty Springfield will start in the $1,500 to $2,500 range; but I don't really keep tabs on gun prices so don't hold me to it. You can get some beat-up model 1816 converted muskets for pretty cheap and use them to learn about muskets and how they were modified. It will give you some hands-on with firearms that may actually have been used during the Civil War and maybe a chance to see some parts from later models, like locks, that will help you when scoping out a model 1863. Then you can sell them or put them over the fireplace.

The observation that you need reference material can never be overstated. In fact, you should always get reference material before you get whatever object they describe. Knowledge is power. If you know things you can evaluate costs and value. While it will help keep you from spending money foolishly, it can also help you spend it wisely. Few things are as gratifying as seeing something, knowing immediately what it is, knowing that it is way under-priced, plunking you money down before anyone else has a chance to start looking at it and asking questions, and walking away knowing that you got the deal of a lifetime.

I liked the comment about golf courses even though I can't shoot any better than I can play golf; barns could scamper about freely without any fear that I might hit them with a shotgun. Where I am the neighborhood deer like to wander through the local golf course on their way to eat people's flowers. I almost got stampeded one afternoon by a herd running through people's front yards. You'd a thought they just played a prank on someone and were trying to get away before someone recongnized them and called their parents.

 

[Stoney Dee]

Hey Stoney, Buy yourself the book " Civil War Guns" by William Edwards. It's an old book , but it covers a lot and is still relevant .It's not over priced on the used book sites .

This book arrived yesterday. Thought it was going to be sort of like thumbing through an old Stoeger's catalog but was great to see that it has very interesting chapters of the development of the guns, the politics of procurement, the stories of the competitiveness to gain contracts, and many other of the "back stories" included. Bonus to me is that it is a VG condition, first edition, first printing issue. Only drawback so far is I was up till about 3 this morning reading it.

 

[JoeCollector]

This book arrived yesterday. Thought it was going to be sort of like thumbing through an old Stoeger's catalog but was great to see that it has very interesting chapters of the development of the guns, the politics of procurement, the stories of the competitiveness to gain contracts, and many other of the "back stories" included. Bonus to me is that it is a VG condition, first edition, first printing issue. Only drawback so far is I was up till about 3 this morning reading it.

Great! I'm happy to hear that your enjoying it. Also didn't cost your left nut like some of the newer books.