Tell me more! Arming a unit

[Jack7171]

Realizing the shortage of arms at the beginning of the war, I understand how many units were outfitted with an older, often converted hodge podge of rifles as no standard firearms could be had in such enormous quantities, and as the 1st class arms became available, many units were switched out to better weapons. My questions would be,
1. If a unit had their smoothbores swapped out for rifles, would they use the same cartridge boxes, or would they also swap out .69 cal cartridge boxes for the .58 cal cartridge boxes?

2. If a unit received 1st class rifles, say Enfields,,,and throughout a few months of battles they lost men and rifles, or rifles were damaged,, would those 1st class rifles be replaced with more Enfields, or would they be replaced with whatever could be acquired, and thus returning the units weaponry back to a mixed bag?

 

[johan_steele]

This is a pair of questions that have to be answered with a question. A lot depends on where and when. As an example the US Regulars got first pick followed by the AoP, then AoC and then AoT with others after that.

CS was a little different but not much. ANV got first pick with AoT and trans-Mississippi behind that.

There are examples of units keeping their old cartridge boxes until newer could be provided but they were eventually replaced.

It was not uncommon for units to have both Enfields and Springfields.

 

[Jack7171]

This is a pair of questions that have to be answered with a question. A lot depends on where and when. As an example the US Regulars got first pick followed by the AoP, then AoC and then AoT with others after that.

CS was a little different but not much. ANV got first pick with AoT and trans-Mississippi behind that.

There are examples of units keeping their old cartridge boxes until newer could be provided but they were eventually replaced.

It was not uncommon for units to have both Enfields and Springfields.

Thank you for the reply! I'll go a bit deeper, as to why I am curious about this. A while back I purchased an 1863 Enfield from an old coal cracker near Pottsville in Schuylkill county Pa ,, near where I live. He said it had been passed around a few generations and he thought it to be used in the cw. He sold me no "story", and his price was about 25 years out of date, so I actually gave him more than he asked because I didn't want to take advantage of him. The Enfield has H. Lloyd faintly carved in the stock. Horris (or Horace) Lloyd served the 48th Pa Volunteers, recruited from Schuylkill County pa. The 48th pa volunteers were initially issued french conversions, but in 1862 were issued Enfields. This rifle I bought is an 1863. He was asking 500.00, I paid him 800.00 and near choked up. He lived deep in coal country in an old mobile home/lean-to on coal mine property.

Could this 1863, have been issued to the 48th pa,,,as a replacement? Or no way possible since they were issued Enfields in 1862.

 

[Don Dixon]

Realizing the shortage of arms at the beginning of the war, I understand how many units were outfitted with an older, often converted hodge podge of rifles as no standard firearms could be had in such enormous quantities, and as the 1st class arms became available, many units were switched out to better weapons. My questions would be,
1. If a unit had their smoothbores swapped out for rifles, would they use the same cartridge boxes, or would they also swap out .69 cal cartridge boxes for the .58 cal cartridge boxes?

When a unit turned in .69 caliber rifled muskets or muskets for .58, .577, or .54 caliber weapons, their accoutrements should have been exchanged as well, but that would have depended upon what the ordnance officer had in store at the time. In many instances the replacement of a unit's weapons took place over time and one consequently had curious mixes of weapons and accoutrements in the hands of troops at any given moment in time. Austrian bayonets were longer than U.S. bayonets, for example, and one sees photos of troops armed with Austrian weapons with part of the bayonet blade sticking out of the too short U.S. bayonet scabbard.

2. If a unit received 1st class rifles, say Enfields,,,and throughout a few months of battles they lost men and rifles, or rifles were damaged,, would those 1st class rifles be replaced with more Enfields, or would they be replaced with whatever could be acquired, and thus returning the units weaponry back to a mixed bag?

By late 1862, all units not equipped with Springfields were supposed to have a regimental armorer equipped with tools and spare parts. Anything he couldn't repair would have been turned over to ordnance. Weapons of soldiers sent to hospital were turned over to ordnance. Units didn't keep significant amounts of "stores in charge" [the phrase used in the Quarterly Ordnance Reports for excess weapons] because the commander was financially responsible for the excess arms and regiments didn't have the transport to haul them. Replacement weapons were governed by whatever the ordnance officer had on-hand when the requisition was received, again leading to mix master arming of units. About the best one could hope for through early 1864 - the entire war for the Confederates - was that all your arms were in more or less of the same caliber (i.e., Springfields, Enfields, and .58 caliber System Lorenz arms in the same unit) since they could all fire the same ammunition, easing the logistical problem of ammunition resupply.

 

[Story]

Could this 1863, have been issued to the 48th pa,,,as a replacement? Or no way possible since they were issued Enfields in 1862.

Looks like your window closes in March 1864, when the Regiment had their Enfields replaced by Springfields (last sentence, p.161)

The Story of the Forty-eighth

books.google.com

You'd just need an ordnance report of replacement Enfields being issued in 1863 at some point.

 

[johan_steele]

Thank you for the reply! I'll go a bit deeper, as to why I am curious about this. A while back I purchased an 1863 Enfield from an old coal cracker near Pottsville in Schuylkill county Pa ,, near where I live. He said it had been passed around a few generations and he thought it to be used in the cw. He sold me no "story", and his price was about 25 years out of date, so I actually gave him more than he asked because I didn't want to take advantage of him. The Enfield has H. Lloyd faintly carved in the stock. Horris (or Horace) Lloyd served the 48th Pa Volunteers, recruited from Schuylkill County pa. The 48th pa volunteers were initially issued french conversions, but in 1862 were issued Enfields. This rifle I bought is an 1863. He was asking 500.00, I paid him 800.00 and near choked up. He lived deep in coal country in an old mobile home/lean-to on coal mine property.

Could this 1863, have been issued to the 48th pa,,,as a replacement? Or no way possible since they were issued Enfields in 1862.
View attachment 504127

This is a fascinating arm anyone would be willing to have in their collection. The carving was likely done post war due to regulations. Had his NCO or an officer spotted such he would have been fined for damaging govt equipment.

There is no way to know when he acquired this arm. They were available for pennies on the dollar via the surplus market after the war. What you know is that man likely owned it. Is it necessarily the one he carried? There is no way to tell without a receipt or the line in his muster out roll that he bought his equipment.

The last P53s that made it into the US were in 63 so it is quite possible he was issued this one as a replacement. Whether on return from hospital or any other reason to include the last getting out of order.

I hope that helps some.

 

[Jack7171]

This is a fascinating arm anyone would be willing to have in their collection. The carving was likely done post war due to regulations. Had his NCO or an officer spotted such he would have been fined for damaging govt equipment.

There is no way to know when he acquired this arm. They were available for pennies on the dollar via the surplus market after the war. What you know is that man likely owned it. Is it necessarily the one he carried? There is no way to tell without a receipt or the line in his muster out roll that he bought his equipment.

The last P53s that made it into the US were in 63 so it is quite possible he was issued this one as a replacement. Whether on return from hospital or any other reason to include the last getting out of order.

I hope that helps some.

Thank you!

 

[Don Dixon]

There is no way to know when he acquired this arm. They were available for pennies on the dollar via the surplus market after the war. What you know is that man likely owned it. Is it necessarily the one he carried? There is no way to tell without a receipt or the line in his muster out roll that he bought his equipment.

Even if the statement of charges for government equipment he purchased and took with him when he was mustered out of service listed a rifle musket or better yet an Enfield, it still wouldn't be proof positive that this Enfield was the one he purchased because the weapons didn't have serial numbers. One of the serious continuity flaws in Glory was the recording of non-existant serial numbers as the weapons were issued to the Black troops of the 54th Massachusetts.

 

[Story]

True enough that there'll never be a concrete link, but how cool would it be for @Jack7171 to be able to lay out this guy's consolidated military record card along with other evidence ("a receipt or the line in his muster out roll that he bought his equipment") like Solitaire cards at a table display? I think there's more to be found - 48th PA Ordnance Reports? Pension Packet? Newspaper.com name search? What else? The focus probably should shift now to the Ancestry forum.

Jack, this rifle has mojo - you gotta pursue this til the well of evidence runs dry.​

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

Regardless of the actual history of the Enfield, awesome post and responses all around

 

[Jack7171]

True enough that there'll never be a concrete link, but how cool would it be for @Jack7171 to be able to lay out this guy's consolidated military record card along with other evidence ("a receipt or the line in his muster out roll that he bought his equipment") like Solitaire cards at a table display? I think there's more to be found - 48th PA Ordnance Reports? Pension Packet? Newspaper.com name search? What else? The focus probably should shift now to the Ancestry forum.

Jack, this rifle has mojo - you gotta pursue this til the well of evidence runs dry.​

I've been scouring ancestry.com and other sources, and am putting pieces together, and after I can verify anything I feel is pertinent, I'll post what I found,, and see what we can learn about Horris(horace) Lloyd. I'm hoping to tie him to the tunnels dug at the Crater, as the 48th Pa were tasked with digging them since they were coal miners,,,and this rifle came from the coal region of Schuylkill county,,not far from where I live.

 

[Dan Kohli]

I've been scouring ancestry.com and other sources, and am putting pieces together, and after I can verify anything I feel is pertinent, I'll post what I found,, and see what we can learn about Horris(horace) Lloyd. I'm hoping to tie him to the tunnels dug at the Crater, as the 48th Pa were tasked with digging them since they were coal miners,,,and this rifle came from the coal region of Schuylkill county,,not far from where I live.

Were they from the Schuylkill Arsenal? Or was it some other facility?

 

[Jack7171]

Were they from the Schuylkill Arsenal? Or was it some other facility?

Schuylkill county,,it's part the coal region in Pennsylvania

 

[Old Soldier]

If this was a Union buy, it would bear markings on the stock, opposite side to the lock, or on the butt usually the 'square' cartouche with two superimposed pairs of cursive initials. As usual, more photos would be appreciated, especially of the lock and the breech so that we can try and work out the source of this rifle. As others have said, the Enfields and the other foreign makes were the first to get sold off after the war as there were more than enough Springfields to go around.

The usual initial issue of weapons seems to have been by company, each company having the same weapon even if it differed from the others. This was to ensure they got the right ammunition - at least the Quartermaster would not have been too happy though. Thus there was often a mix of smoothbore and different types of rifle. One of the reasons the Austrian Lorenz bayonets did not fit the US scabbards was that they were cruciform - four edges, not the fairly standard three-sided ones, so they would not always fit the triangular hole in the throat of the scabbard. The scabbards were always made longer than the bayonet as that would leave them prone to breaking the leather and/or losing the chape at the bottom when the bayonet was thrust back into them.

 

[Dan Kohli]

Schuylkill county,,it's part the coal region in Pennsylvania

I misunderstood what you meant earlier.

 

[Jack7171]

I misunderstood what you meant earlier.

No worries, I've been misunderstood my whole life

 

[Bentonville]

After Vicksburg when Confederate arms were stacked more than a few regiments 'traded' their weapons for those captured. Enfields were better than state issue in that case.

 

[Old Soldier]

After Vicksburg when Confederate arms were stacked more than a few regiments 'traded' their weapons for those captured. Enfields were better than state issue in that case.

Most, if not all, of those 'traded' would have been smoothbores or imports. Enfields were better than most of the European rifles and fired compatible ammunition to the US Springfields.

 

[Pollaco]

I often wondered what it did for morale when a unit was issued the older rifles instead of more modern ones. There had to be a little resentment.

 

[Jack7171]

True enough that there'll never be a concrete link, but how cool would it be for @Jack7171 to be able to lay out this guy's consolidated military record card along with other evidence ("a receipt or the line in his muster out roll that he bought his equipment") like Solitaire cards at a table display? I think there's more to be found - 48th PA Ordnance Reports? Pension Packet? Newspaper.com name search? What else? The focus probably should shift now to the Ancestry forum.

Jack, this rifle has mojo - you gotta pursue this til the well of evidence runs dry.​

My dad and I have been getting our monies worth out of ancestry.com

I found darn near a whole company of Lloyds from Pottsville and immediate surrounding areas in Schuylkill county,, most all enlisted within the same days, all Company H 48th Pa infantry. And among the Lloyds, is Horris(Horace) Lloyd.

His family tree shows several brothers and cousins, and they match up with the records we found,,and we are still digging to narrow down more specific info.