Armchair Generals

[CaptainIsaacHall]

I've read Clausewitz and Jomini (both in English translation, of course), which is more than the vast majority of Civil War generals could say.

To my memory, Jomini was actually read at West Point at the time. Feel free to correct me otherwise.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

To my memory, Jomini was actually read at West Point at the time. Feel free to correct me otherwise.

Jomini had mostly an indirect influence. What military theory the students got as part of the curriculum was largely the contribution of instructor Dennis Hart Mahan, who certainly read and was affected by Jomini... and the non-West Point generals were quite unlikely to have encountered Jomini at all unless they were very well-read (which, to be fair, a few were... but they were the minority).

 

[CaptainIsaacHall]

Jomini had mostly an indirect influence.

While I agree for the most part, Halleck's Elements of Military Art and Science was essentially a direct translation of Jomini (though, to be fair, it was partly common sense).

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

I wouldn't call it a direct translation, though Halleck was definitely one of the ones who read Jomini (and he even refers to Clausewitz in at least one place-- Clausewitz didn't attain his present level of appreciation until later). Halleck's principal translation was actually of a biography of Jomini, rather than Jomini's Art of War itself, although I do wonder if the 1862 West Point translation was influenced by Halleck... anyway, Halleck was unquestionably knowledgeable of Jomini, and to an extent that was not normal among his contemporaries, West Pointers or otherwise.

 

[CaptainIsaacHall]

I wouldn't call it a direct translation, though Halleck was definitely one of the ones who read Jomini (and he even refers to Clausewitz in at least one place-- Clausewitz didn't attain his present level of appreciation until later). Halleck's principal translation was actually of a biography of Jomini, rather than Jomini's Art of War itself, although I do wonder if the 1862 West Point translation was influenced by Halleck... anyway, Halleck was unquestionably knowledgeable of Jomini, and to an extent that was not normal among his contemporaries, West Pointers or otherwise.

My wording was off when I said 'direct translation', so I apologize in that regard, but very true. Interesting to read how much Old Brains made use of it, though. Unfortunately for him, Halleck seems to be one of the 'Armchair Generals'.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

I have some interest in Halleck... I think he's been more maligned than is accurate, although the truth of his actions is dam ning enough. The fact that he died soon after the war and left no memoirs prevents us from knowing how he would have responded to his postwar critics.

He would have made a far better staff officer than he did a commander, at any rate. With command ability, some have it and some don't, and he didn't. But his grasp of the military art and other details like that was impressive.

 

[CaptainIsaacHall]

I have some interest in Halleck... I think he's been more maligned than is accurate, although the truth of his actions is dam ning enough. The fact that he died soon after the war and left no memoirs prevents us from knowing how he would have responded to his postwar critics.

He would have made a far better staff officer than he did a commander, at any rate. With command ability, some have it and some don't, and he didn't. But his grasp of the military art and other details like that was impressive.

Well, with the cut-and-dry way the war is spread around and taught, it's no surprise that when someone such as Halleck is mentioned, the first thing that may come to someone's mind is 'lazy', or 'bad', or anything along those lines. Much like if someone were to think of McClellan they'd think 'slow' or 'hesitant'.

The same could be said with regards to fame, really. A good example is Joshua L. Chamberlain, and how much fame he's acquired. In one book, the name may appear as 'hero', and it spreads into other books and other minds, until it becomes widespread opinion and belief. Chamberlain was a hero, of course, but he's gained a ludicrous amount of fame for his actions, in my opinion.

Halleck was definitely a smart cookie, nobody can deny that. Though, it seems like a handful of smart cookies (i.e. McClellan) would have been (or were) better staff officers than field commanders (not that Halleck was really a field commander).

 

[Nytram01]

My major point is that even generals are human. Winning generals make mistakes, they usually only make less mistakes than their foes. Any general whose battle plan will fail if they or a subordinate makes a single mistake, needs to rethink their battle plan.

The whole point of examining history is to assess what happened, why those things happen, how the people involved effected the outcome and why they made the choices they did, and, yes, even to question whether the choices they made were the right ones or whether the outcome would have changed if they'd done something differently.

Hindsight offers the ideal opportunity to assess those things. Nobody should be condemning anyone for making mistakes in the moment but it would be wrong to dissmiss the worth of retrospective evaulation, because only be examining the past can lessons be learned from it.

 

[photoman475]

After Grant assumed command of the U.S. Army in March 1864, wasn't Halleck effectively Grant's chief of staff back in Washington? He may not have had the title, but I've been under the impression is that is what Halleck became, a staff officer.

Alan

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

Halleck's position after Grant's promotion was rather anomalous... though that may have suited Halleck just fine; he appears to have been far more comfortable in the role of advisor than of commander, though I'm not sure he had the personal insight to see the difference. (Thanks to the lack of memoirs, we're lacking a lot of data on "Old Brains'" inner workings... Marszalek's biography of him probably comes closest.)

 

[rosefiend]

"What if Gettysburg NEVER HAPPENED??......"What if Lincoln fell in the bathtub in June, 1861, and split his head open??"....."What if an anonymous soldier fired a shot from Ft. Donelson, hitting a guy named Grant in the head??"........Speculation, with hindsight, makes for a LOT of geniuses!!

 

[photoman475]

Ok, to play the devil's advocate some more as the previous poster is doing:

What if Lee remains with the Union? What if Stuart had stayed with the Union? Or Phil Sheridan been at Pea Ridge instead of getting rations for the Army? Or Jeff Davis is the Confederate Secretary of War instead of President? Or Lee listened to Longstreet after the first day at Gettysburg? The list could go on and on! And the commentary on the poster would be just as valid.

 

[CaptainIsaacHall]

Ok, to play the devil's advocate some more as the previous poster is doing:

What if Lee remains with the Union? What if Stuart had stayed with the Union? Or Phil Sheridan been at Pea Ridge instead of getting rations for the Army? Or Jeff Davis is the Confederate Secretary of War instead of President? Or Lee listened to Longstreet after the first day at Gettysburg? The list could go on and on! And the commentary on the poster would be just as valid.

...What if the war never happened? What if Abraham Lincoln joined the Confederacy? What if McClellan got elected? What if Albert Sidney Johnston survived Shiloh? What if Jefferson Davis was the Confederate general and Lee the president? What if God chose a side? What if Colonel Whathisname didn't choose the thingamabob to defend?

Well, all I can say for sure is, thank god Colonel Whathisname decided to defend the thingamabob, for he saved the Union.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

And let's not forget the possibility of time-traveling South African ****s bringing AK47s.

 

[photoman475]

CaptainIsaacHall: I think many of the abolitionists would say God chose a side with the Union victory.

Joshism: Wasn't it Harry Turtledove who wrote a book where the inventor of the AK47 went back in time and gave Lee AK47s? I haven't read the book, so I could be off in the author. I remember the book because it came out when I was working for B. Dalton.

Alan

 

[Sbc]

Armchair General seems to be dirty words. Are we not all armchair genenerals?

Since we were all born too late for the war in question yes. The opportunity for glory eludes us so we content ourselves with studying those who participated.

 

[CaptainIsaacHall]

CaptainIsaacHall: I think many of the abolitionists would say God chose a side with the Union victory.

"I think the dam ned old cuss of a preacher lied like Dixie, for he said that God has fought all our battles and won our victories. Now, if he had done that, why is it not in the papers, and why has he not been promoted yet?" - Sergeant Albinus Fell

Well, my friend, I think you might be right there. I love that quote, by the way. Gives me a good laugh when I remember that they had a sense of humor as well.

 

[photoman475]

CaptainIsaacHall: This is the first I've seen this quote, and I think it's just wonderful! I need to find a place to use it sometime!

Alan

 

[CaptainIsaacHall]

CaptainIsaacHall: This is the first I've seen this quote, and I think it's just wonderful! I need to find a place to use it sometime!

Alan

It can be found in Ken Burns' Civil War documentary. Interesting, though it focuses on the picturesque perspective of the war.

 

[Specster]

...What if the war never happened? What if Abraham Lincoln joined the Confederacy? What if McClellan got elected? What if Albert Sidney Johnston survived Shiloh? What if Jefferson Davis was the Confederate general and Lee the president? What if God chose a side? What if Colonel Whathisname didn't choose the thingamabob to defend?

Well, all I can say for sure is, thank god Colonel Whathisname decided to defend the thingamabob, for he saved the Union.

What if Lincoln joined the Confederacy? I dont get it. He never would have done that, he would be the last man to have done that. You can put what ifs out there all day.....if my Aunt had Testicles she'd be my Uncle...but she does not.