Any information on this weapon?

[Medgerton24]

I was given a rifle by my grandfather and don't know much about it. I know my dad bought it on a deployment to Afghanistan in 2003. It says Enfield 1861 and has. Crown and a V.R. Beside the crown.

 

[mofederal]

Hello and welcome to the talk forum from Southeast Missouri located on the banks of the muddy Mississippi River. It is a British Enfield, I don't know the particular model pattern, maybe 1858 Pattern. It could be pattern, 53, 58 or 61, carbine, cavalry or artillery carbine. Others will be here soon to tell you everything you would want to know about the rifle.

 

[Tailor Pete]

I'm no expert on Enfields, but it looks to be a carbine of sorts... or possibly a cut down rifle or rifle musket. To my untrained eye, the front sight looks to be a bit crude for an armory job.

I'm also a bit curious about the odd coloring and finish of the wood. Looks a bit orangeish to me, and the patchiness looks like it has been varnished at one point... definitely have it checked to make sure it isn't a Reproduction.

Good luck, and welcome to the Forum.

 

[thomas aagaard]

No expert, but it Got fixed rear sight.
So I would say a P1858 smoothbore for sergeants made for use by Sepoys after the mutiny... or that it what it is suppose to look like.

Considering how you got it, I would say it is a fake / made in India. Or "Khyber junck" as others have called it.

Guess we need to wait for one of the experts to come by...

 

[9th VA Asian]

Not an expert but it's definitely a p61 enfield musketoon. Possibly a copy but could just as easily be an original left over by british occupation. Stamps seem correct but again, not 100% sure without more research

 

[yulzari]

Thomas is exactly right. An Indian Army Enfield made 2 band smooth bore of 0.656" bore to be use with a musket type cartridge and round ball. Pattern 1858.

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy

 

[Stone in the wall]

Welcome from the Mountain State, thanks for posting the pictures

 

[ranger326]

Send your post over to the British Militaria forums.
Keep us posted.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/

 

[Patrick H]

That's a neat little firearm. I would not have known it was an Indian Army smooth bore if I hadn't stumbled into your thread. Pretty interesting! Thanks and welcome.

 

[gary]

No ladder type rear sight as found on the British guns. The Confederate copies (Cook & Bros?) didn't have a ladder style adjustable rear sight but a simple rear blade sight. I'm in concurrence this is a Indian copy.

 

[Badgercwcollector]

If it could only talk !

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Agree with the Sepoy usage and alteration, but to add a bit more information:

[QUOTE="gary, The Confederate copies (Cook & Bros?) didn't have a ladder style adjustable rear sight.

Cook & Brother did in fact use Enfield type long range ladder sights on early New Orleans made rifles, but that's for another thread. Enjoy.

 

[ikesdad]

No expert here but I've seen a few Martinis and Lee Enfields from that part of the world and the stamping on those are cruder than what is on the OP's lockplate, which is either original or they have an excellent repro factory over there. Too many "Khyber" fakes have shown up here to make one "gun shy" of any firearm coming out of that region but not all are fakes. I vote that if nothing else is original, at least the lockplate is.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Hello and welcome to CWT!

I'm not one of the gun gurus here, but your rifle looks to me like its a Khyber Pass copy of an Enfield. The bolster, the rear sight, the stock, the hammer, and the overall crudeness of it looks like a Khyber Pass copy to me.

Those things, and originals seem to show up in Afghanistan a lot, I've seen some examples brought home by the Vets who came under fire by Afghans using them, where they obviously came up on the losing side and their "Enfields" became souvenirs, and I've seen more than a few that were bought as souvenirs from markets over yonder. Folks in that part of the world are enterprising in copying old guns, though not educated, I'm always amused when I see a copy of a Martini-Henry marked "V.R." with year being something like "1910" or "1914" which is amusing because Queen Victoria passed on in 1901.

 

[yulzari]

There is nothing on the musket to indicate anything other than it being an Enfield production Pattern1858 with a 33" barrel. They were made with smooth bores and with a fixed rear sight just as this bears. It has certainly had a long life with wear especially on the finish of the stock but it all seems pukka to me.

These were made in England at Enfield for issue to sepoys of the East India Government, which superceded the Honourable East India Company. The purpose being to give the sepoys weapons which looked like the rifled ones in the hands of European soldiers but which lacked their range and accuracy. Most soon ended up in the hands of local police as sepoys were issued with rifle muskets. Initially to sepoys of units of known loyalty and then more widely. In the meantime the Brunswick Rifle was the rifled arm used by Sikh and NW Frontier regiments for long range accurate fire and these were still being ordered into the 1860's. By then using Enfield Pattern 1853 type swivel sidelocks instead of the Pattern 1838 Lovell back action locks of the type 1 and the Pattern 1851 hook sidelocks of the type 2. In 1867 the Brunswick was the only rifled arm in the hands of native troops in India.

A very useful weapon for smooth bore percussion military musket competitions. I would be happy to own one for that use. The service cartridge being a musket style paper cartridge with a 0.632" ball choked in the paper with a charge of 4 drams (109 grains) of 'Fine Grain' powder.

Perhaps Medgerton24 can comment on the measurements of his gun?

 

[yulzari]

Does the fore sight resemble a small dog kennel?

 

[BraggRelative]

I was given a rifle by my grandfather and don't know much about it. I know my dad bought it on a deployment to Afghanistan in 2003. It says Enfield 1861 and has. Crown and a V.R. Beside the crown.

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To me it appears to be a "musketoon"

 

[rebelatsea]

I remember reading many moons ago that village workshops and blacksmiths in Afghanistan could turn out copies of virtually anything given the materiels.