Breechldrs Another Spencer Carbine

[Hotdog]

I brought a Spencer carbine home from a local gun show I visited on a bored whim. The collector I bought it from was nice, and said it had honest combat use in the war. That's probably not out of the realm of possibility, but I had my doubts and purchased the gun not the story. My curiosity is getting the better of me and I wanted to know what you all thought?
My limited knowledge of Spencers tells me that this might be a late production judging by the serial number, so it's window of Civil War service is probably limited. It seems to have some honest use, Spencer's patent and address are almost completely gone, there's some minor chipping of the wood where the stock meets the buttplate, a buggered screw, etc. It has case coloring on the buttplate, which is surprising as well, I would have thought that would be one of the first places for case coloring to go. I don't see any indication of post war alteration, but I wouldn't know enough to be 100% sure, there is no cut-off, I think it's got an 1860 hammer, barrel is 22 inches, sight is graduated up to 800 yards.
I've attached a few images. Serial Number included. Ultimately whatever it's story I think it's a nice example.

 

[JOHN42768]

I'll go out on a limb here. IMHO it is an 1860 Confederate Captured,Repaired & Reissued. The T and the Q are their marks. Might explain the difference in finish. Look on page 3 of book listing at beginning of this section.

 

[Hotdog]

I'll go out on a limb here. IMHO it is an 1860 Confederate Captured,Repaired & Reissued. The T and the Q are their marks. Might explain the difference in finish. Look on page 3 of book listing at beginning of this section.

If that's the case that's a pretty neat surprise! I saw them when I was looking it over at the show and thought they were sub-inspector stamps. I may have to do some homework.

 

[rob63]

When I bought my Spencer Carbine I searched in vain on the internet for something that would tell me when it was delivered according to the serial number. There is a well-known book about Spencers by Roy Marcot, but the price has always been beyond what I am willing to pay for a book so I have no idea if it has this info in it or not.

The end result of that is that I put together a spread-sheet of serial numbers based upon the delivery records of rifles and carbines recorded by John McAuley in his books. I can't vouch that this is absolutely 100% accurate since I don't know whether Spencer began production of rifles with number one and then continued in order through carbine production. The caveats said, my spread sheet says your carbine should have been delivered to the Federal government in December, 1864.

If someone else has a better reference for these numbers, I would love to see it.

 

[bayonet]

I thought I replied to this on Monday or did I forget to hit "Post reply" or was it deleted for some reason?

 

[Hotdog]

When I bought my Spencer Carbine I searched in vain on the internet for something that would tell me when it was delivered according to the serial number. There is a well-known book about Spencers by Roy Marcot, but the price has always been beyond what I am willing to pay for a book so I have no idea if it has this info in it or not.

The end result of that is that I put together a spread-sheet of serial numbers based upon the delivery records of rifles and carbines recorded by John McAuley in his books. I can't vouch that this is absolutely 100% accurate since I don't know whether Spencer began production of rifles with number one and then continued in order through carbine production. The caveats said, my spread sheet says your carbine should have been delivered to the Federal government in December, 1864.

If someone else has a better reference for these numbers, I would love to see it.

I thought the serial would have been a little late, and that confirmed my suspicion, thank you! I'm not sure when it would have been issued, but judging from the capture markings, it must have had at least some service in the field. That's great.

@bayonet
I never saw your post, so I can't say either way.

 

[bayonet]

I thought the serial would have been a little late, and that confirmed my suspicion, thank you! I'm not sure when it would have been issued, but judging from the capture markings, it must have had at least some service in the field. That's great.

@bayonet
I never saw your post, so I can't say either way.

I have serial # 47262 and from what I was told by memory it was issued in late 1864. So yours would be just before that. Serial #s start at about 11,000 and end around 61,000 from my understanding. Also is that a Q or an O? Looks like a O to me. There are others on this website that know more about T or Q (or O) markings, maybe they will jump in. You admit your limited knowledge on Spencer's so you took a big chance, like they say here get the books first and do the research. By the way what did you pay for it?

 

[Hotdog]

I have serial # 47262 and from what I was told by memory it was issued in late 1864. So yours would be just before that. Serial #s start at about 11,000 and end around 61,000 from my understanding. Also is that a Q or an O? Looks like a O to me. There are others on this website that know more about T or Q (or O) markings, maybe they will jump in. You admit your limited knowledge on Spencer's so you took a big chance, like they say here get the books first and do the research. By the way what did you pay for it?

I'll have to take a closer look when I get home. I thought it was an "O" initially too, but I will need to double check. My eyesight isn't the best. I'll keep an eye out for the books online. I paid $2,000. Maybe a little high?

 

[rob63]

I have serial # 47262 and from what I was told by memory it was issued in late 1864. So yours would be just before that. Serial #s start at about 11,000 and end around 61,000 from my understanding.

If it is correct that carbine serial numbers start around 11,000, then my database based on delivery records is also almost certainly correct.

The OP's carbine number 46071 would have been delivered on 12/23/64.
Your number of 47262 would have been delivered on 12/31/64.

 

[bayonet]

If it is correct that carbine serial numbers start around 11,000, then my database based on delivery records is also almost certainly correct.

The OP's carbine number 46071 would have been delivered on 12/23/64.
Your number of 47262 would have been delivered on 12/31/64.

So maybe 4 months of seeing the Elephant (and not a pink one).

 

[bayonet]

I'll have to take a closer look when I get home. I thought it was an "O" initially too, but I will need to double check. My eyesight isn't the best. I'll keep an eye out for the books online. I paid $2,000. Maybe a little high?

If turns out to have CSA usage due to those markings then you made out. If not then I'd say you paid too much.

 

[bayonet]

If it is correct that carbine serial numbers start around 11,000, then my database based on delivery records is also almost certainly correct.

The OP's carbine number 46071 would have been delivered on 12/23/64.
Your number of 47262 would have been delivered on 12/31/64.

Actually several years ago a guy at the Spencer Shooting Society / Spencer Forum / CasCity.com claims mine was issued in September 1964. With Serial #s close to mine issued to New York Cavalry regiments. With the closet serial # issued to the Co F 19th NY Volunteer Cavalry.

 

[rob63]

Actually several years ago a guy at the Spencer Shooting Society / Spencer Forum / CasCity.com claims mine was issued in September 1964. With Serial #s close to mine issued to New York Cavalry regiments. With the closet serial # issued to the Co F 19th NY Volunteer Cavalry.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the SRS data for Spencers. Wish I could see it, it would certainly make it easier to figure out exactly what they did. Do you know what the number was for that one that was closest?

A total of 23,176 carbines had been delivered at the beginning of September 1864. The only way that date works with your serial number is to assume that carbine serial numbers begin around 24,000 instead of 11,000, or that they skipped large blocks of numbers for some reason.

Edit: I did some looking around on the net and found a carbine numbered in the 11,000's, so they started the numbers in that area. I'm starting a record of serial numbers of surviving examples that I can find to see what else it can tell me.

 

[Hotdog]

If turns out to have CSA usage due to those markings then you made out. If not then I'd say you paid too much.

I'd like to figure that out for sure. I've been looking at other examples and I haven't seen many with markings placed in those locations, but who knows? It's fun to think about though. It doesn't leave a lot of room for a window for capture, I'm sure I can eventually whittle it down to a specific date range.

Looking closely, I can't tell if it's an "O" or "Q", that might be lost to time.

@rob63
12/23/64 would give it time to be issued at a later date and it may have seen some action then? That's fun to think about. I have a couple of rifles and carbines I know have seen service, but those saw relatively early war combat, a late war representation would be a great addition to the collection, even if it was just a matter of weeks.

 

[rob63]

@rob63
12/23/64 would give it time to be issued at a later date and it may have seen some action then? That's fun to think about. I have a couple of rifles and carbines I know have seen service, but those saw relatively early war combat, a late war representation would be a great addition to the collection, even if it was just a matter of weeks.

I have no idea how much time elapsed between delivery and issue, but assume it is certainly possible it was issued before the war was over.

FWIW, I have found examples of 23 carbines and 12 rifles online, all of the serial numbers fell within the range that my database would predict rifle and carbine numbers to fall except for 1 rifle. It has a serial number on it that the database would predict was delivered 06/18/64 but the nearest rifle delivery was 05/14/64, so I obviously can't claim a confidence of closer than a month. That said, there were 3 other rifles with late war serial numbers intermixed with carbine production that fell exactly when they should have according to my database, so I think there is reason to have some confidence in it being close.

 

[bayonet]

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the SRS data for Spencers. Wish I could see it, it would certainly make it easier to figure out exactly what they did. Do you know what the number was for that one that was closest?

A total of 23,176 carbines had been delivered at the beginning of September 1864. The only way that date works with your serial number is to assume that carbine serial numbers begin around 24,000 instead of 11,000, or that they skipped large blocks of numbers for some reason.

Edit: I did some looking around on the net and found a carbine numbered in the 11,000's, so they started the numbers in that area. I'm starting a record of serial numbers of surviving examples that I can find to see what else it can tell me.

He didn't include that. Also you maybe counting only Government purchases in your serial # configuration and not adding in private purchases or those by Dealers.

 

[rob63]

He didn't include that. Also you maybe counting only Government purchases in your serial # configuration and not adding in private purchases or those by Dealers.

There isn't any doubt that I am only counting government purchases, it is strictly from government delivery records. However, Spencer was always way behind on delivery for his government contracts which were subject to cancellation for failing to deliver so it doesn't seem likely he would have diverted much of his production to private purchases. Wilder's Brigade is famous for raising money to purchase Spencer rifles privately, but their actual delivery came from government stores. Impossible to say how much of an impact possible private purchases had, but at least we can get a ball-park idea of serial number dates from the government deliveries.

I'm going to get a copy of the actual government delivery records so that I can double check to make sure McAulay didn't make a mistake in his books, something was left out, or I simply missed something, and then I will post my complete listing. It isn't really rocket science or anything, and I am at least confident now that the Model 1860 serial numbers ran consecutively throughout rifle and carbine production.

I'm hoping that once I can verify the records, and as I expand my list of observed surviving guns, I can get a better feel for just how far off my database is or, perhaps, find something that leads to improvements.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I believe that the dates for government purchases are dates for acceptance for PAYMENT purposes and not date of delivery. With the early rifle deliveries some arms were in the hands of troops before the dates shown for delivery to the government

 

[rob63]

I believe that the dates for government purchases are dates for acceptance for PAYMENT purposes and not date of delivery. With the early rifle deliveries some arms were in the hands of troops before the dates shown for delivery to the government

If that's the case, then it really throws a monkey wrench into trying to figure it all out. It does help explain an anomaly in rifle deliveries that I am seeing as I continue to find existing examples, and some things that never made much sense when viewed strictly as a production schedule, but do make sense as corrections for an accounting error.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Wiley Sword's article about the early rile shipments "Those Damned Michigan Spencers" discusses this in a sidebar at page 30 and he suggests this applies in general to ordnance purchases. You can Google and easily find that article