Discussion Another P1853 Enfield with a Confederate Connection?

Bluenoser

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Aug 24, 2022
Greetings
New member here

I have been involved in the black powder community for more decades than I care to admit, but have not had a particular focus on the Civil War era. I recently acquired an all-matching Barnett P1853 Enfield rifle in good to very good condition that, I believe, has a Confederate States connection. I am a complete novice when it comes to the US Civil War and would very much appreciate any and all input, guidance and comments from those with more knowledge. That which follows is information gleaned from the internet and might be flat-out incorrect. Additional photos should be available at a later date. I am just now learning to navigate the site.

It is my understanding that Barnett was a leading, if not the primary, provider of British small arms to the Confederate States. I have read that Inspectors or Agents for the Confederate States viewed each rifle prior to acceptance and shipping and placed their view mark, which consists of initials in an oval, on the comb immediately ahead of the butt plate extension. My rifle has such a mark, which measures approximately 1/2" across on the long side. In this case, it is a "T.S" in an oval. It is possible the "T" is a stylized "P" with a tail, but I am quite certain it is a "T". The view mark appears to me to be identical to other accepted Confederate view marks I have seen on this and other sites, but with different initials.
My questions are two fold:
- Does such a view mark indicate ownership of this rifle by the CSA?
- Did any other entity of the period employ a similar, and similarly located, view mark?

I also understand the Confederacy confiscated Union arms and collected Confederate arms from the battlefelds and ran them through a Repair Depot prior to placing them back in service. I believe this is referred to as their C&C Program and I understand such arms were marked with a letter designation on the underside of the stock ahead of the trigger guard. My rifle has the letter "X" prominently stamped on the underside of the stock directly under the forward lock bolt.
Does that reliably indicate passage through a Confederate Repair Depot and would it further support the belief of Confederate ownership?

I have not been able to find any other markings not related to manufacture.

Many thanks for any and all help.

Repair Mark.jpg


View Mark.jpg
 
That is encouraging. I was not aware the view marks were placed anywhere other than on the comb. Then again, I know next to nothing on the subject. Does your view mark look as though it was struck with the same die? I wonder if it is known whose initials they are.
 
That is very cool. I have the book "Captured and Collected" It does not mention an X, It does say "Identification of all currently known markings: A,F, Q(most common), T, and Z. But others may exist. Your X has the serifs the other letters have. So interpret from that what you will. Would love to see more pics.
 
I discovered another thread on this site with a photo showing the same "X" on the forestock of another rifle.
More pics will follow. I have pics of all the markings, but need to crop and edit them before posting. I still need to take overall pics.
 
Initials in circles or ovals on the top comb of the stock just ahead of the buttplate tang are considered confederate viewer's marks. A viewer's mark would be the mark showing the newly completed gun had been examined ("viewed") and accepted as meeting the contract specifications. These were private inspectors hired by - well, maybe a state, maybe the CSA, maybe a seller who wanted a seal of quality approval stamped on his wares. But these would have been inspected and stamped in England, not here.
The X on the belly of your stock (is it about two inches of so ahead of the triggerplate?) is one of those marks recently mentioned as likely a mark put on during the rifles service to show it was examined and approved after some sort of repair.
 
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, the "X" is approximately 2" ahead of the forward extension of the trigger guard. It is pretty much directly under the forward lock bolt.
 
Welcome from THE Heart Of Dixie and the Small Arms & Ammo forum. Jeff is spot on with the CS viewers marks and us having many great threads on the Enfields and the X markings. If you could post some photos of the whole gun to include the lock plate and the barrel markings it would be helpful. Are there any markings near the but-plate tang? In the mean time paging @Craig L Barry and @Lanyard Puller.
 
More photos as promised
"WS" Stock immediately behind trigger guard extension
Markings on face of lock plate - two photos
Markings on inside face of lock plate - two photos
Markings on ramrod retainer
Markings on underside of barrel -5 photos breech to muzzle
Barnett name on side of barrel
Marking on inside face of hammer - there may be more unseen
Proof marks - pretty worn
I will try to take and post overall photos tomorrow

WS Mark Behind Trigger Guard.jpg


Lock Face Marks 1.jpg


Lock Face Marks 2.jpg


Lockplate Rear Marks 1.jpg


Lockplate Rear Marks 2.jpg


Ramrod Retainer Mark.jpg


Barrel Marks 1.jpg


Barrel Marks 2.jpg


Barrel Marks 3.jpg


Barrel Marks 4.jpg


Barrel Marks 5.jpg


Barrel Marks 6.jpg


Hammer Mark.jpg


Barrel Proof Marks.jpg
 
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Hard to say, Barnett sold arms to whomever it was legal to sell to...and they were a well knowns Supplier to the Confederacy.
I have posted before that at least one CS contract with JE Barnett went into Union hands when the Confederates did not pay on time. US Consul FH Morse reported to the Secretary of War on November 6, 1861:

"I have the satisfaction of informing you that one of the gun manufacturers here who had a contract with the rebels running to March (1862) has had a difficulty with them, broken the contract, and will hereafter send his guns, Enfield rifles, to New York on his own account. His name is Barnett and his rifles stand very well here."
 
Sorry for the delay folks.
Here are the overall pics. Clearer pics of all stamps are available in earlier posts. When received, the "ramrod" was a brass rod with a hex nut brazed onto the end and it had that totally inappropriate screw holding the hammer on. I will find an appropriate ramrod and find or make a correct screw.
Please let me know if you would like additional pics or info.

Barnett RS View.jpg


Barnett LS View.jpg


Barnett RS Butt.jpg


Barnett Lock Side.jpg


Barnett RS Forend.jpg


Barnett LS Butt.jpg




Barnett Comb View.jpg


Barnett Under Side View.jpg


Barnett LS Forend.jpg
 
A fairly typical Type 3 with some unusual marks. The 'Tower' under the crown is not often seen. The TOWER is usually on the lock above the date on London and Birmingham contract guns (parts sourced from sub-contractors) and the ones with the gunmakers name normally have the crown without anything. Having said that, it seems to be a Barnett theme - there was one marked exactly the same offered for sale from College Hill Arsenal. Also check another thread from 2019: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/help-identifying-enfield-barnett-rifle.157110/

"There is no English gun maker who could more appropriately be called the "Gun Maker to the Confederacy" than the London firm of John Edward Barnett & Sons. During the course of the American Civil War, Barnett delivered thousands of Pattern 1853 "Enfield" rifle muskets, as well as Pattern 1853 Artillery and Pattern 1856 Cavalry carbines to the Confederacy." College Hill.

It's a London proof on the barrel - quite unusual as they are usually Birmingham proofs, but it also has 14.4(mm - the calibre) underneath which means the barrel was made in Liege and bought in by Barnett, then proofed in London - a common practice at the time. (The College Hill one showed that the original Liege proof was partly removed and the London proofs over-stamped).

'WS' may well be the assembler's mark. The hammer screw is not original. There may be a '25' on top of the muzzle (25-bore)

Original ramrods can be bought in the UK and probably your side too. They will be marked and even rusty - but it would go well with your P53. Do not be tempted to buy the two-piece repro ones. You want the one with slot and jags, not the 'tulip' ones.

The acceptance stamp is usually JS but ...
 
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Thanks for your comments. I do not know if College Hill Arsenal posts info on previous listings, but will check them out. I have done a pretty thorough search for markings, but may have missed something around the muzzle. I will take a closer look. Also, thank you for the info on the ramrod. Had you not mentioned it, I might have ended up with the 'tulip' style. A correct screw for the hammer will likely turn up. If not, I have others for reference and will make one. In addition to building American longrifles, one of my hobbies is restoring antique firearms and I do have a quite well equipped machine shop. I did assume 'WS' to be the assembler's mark since it appears in various places.
 
Thanks for your comments. I do not know if College Hill Arsenal posts info on previous listings, but will check them out. I have done a pretty thorough search for markings, but may have missed something around the muzzle. I will take a closer look. Also, thank you for the info on the ramrod. Had you not mentioned it, I might have ended up with the 'tulip' style. A correct screw for the hammer will likely turn up. If not, I have others for reference and will make one. In addition to building American longrifles, one of my hobbies is restoring antique firearms and I do have a quite well equipped machine shop. I did assume 'WS' to be the assembler's mark since it appears in various places.
College Hill still have them on line - that where I got the info from! Bear in mind that many of the barrel markings will be Belgian. Again, look at Dyson's online (UK site) https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/ENFIELD_RIFLE_parts-p1.html - they have loads of original and (non-Italian or -Spanish) repro parts which FIT (Enfield threads!!) I cannot use US suppliers as they are not allowed to export!

The 'WS' is unusual since most assemblers in GB and Liege used the old 'line' method (\ / l l), the initials we not used for another few years in GB. I too do a lot of restoration - but most of my old long arms and pistols are hardly good display items - but you learn a lot of old gunsmithing skills!
 
Thanks OS
I have dealt with Peter Dyson before, but it has been quite a few years. Gotta love those proprietary Enfield threads! I have an assortment of oddball taps and dies and can sometimes match something up. The thread angle can be the biggest challenge. It will be no problem to make and appropriately age a screw to use until I find an original through my network of like-minded friends.

I misspoke with regard to the assembler's mark. I should have said I assumed 'WS' was the assembler's initials. The assembly mark on this gun is "l l". The gun appears to be all-matching right down to the lock and tang bolts. Also, I looked for markings in the vicinity of the front sight and muzzle. There are none. I was more than a little pleased to find all three band screws still have their retainers.
 

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