America's Caesar

[JerseyBart]

Thats all you got, just facts?

Unfortunately that's all I've got. I wish I could give you some hopes, dreams and unprovable opinion.

 

[AndyHall]

This seems like a good place to mention that Howell Cobb was the uncle of Mildred Lewis Rutherford, the Historian General of the UDC and a major figure in crafting and perpetuating the Lost Cause narrative in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Mildred is on the left.

 

[Elennsar]

There is definitely something of a family resemblance.

 

[DanF]

There is definitely something of a family resemblance.

Yeah, not easy to tell though since she apparently shaved more frequently than Howell.

 

[Elennsar]

Yeah, not easy to tell though since she apparently shaved more frequently than Howell.

I could make a rather discourteous remark about how much of a shame that is, but I'll settle for noting that their eyes were what caught my attention as far as "family resemblance".

 

[DanF]

I was already familiar with who Rutherford was but I was not aware she was cobbs neice, that explains alot.

Thanks Andy.

 

[ole]

Already read Rutherford, which leads me to avoid Merriwether.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

How about killing for Freeing Slaves and Preserving Unions? The Apostle Paul is on record as supporting the Fugitive Slave Law... centuries before it ever happened...

OH my gosh, crying! Which record is that, the one where if you play The Beatles White Album backwards, you hear it?

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

I'm sorry Diane left before the Secret Twenty guy got to who exactly the Devil is, in his version. ( One of him, I guess the other five are made up for ballast, all that ego, he'd fall over walking down the street and the rest are the voices in his head- shhh, they'll hear you ) Trying to figure out if it's to be Lincoln or if they're all implying the Forces if Darkness are his own little, awful elflings. Hmmmm.

 

[ole]

Hilarious humor, Annie. Wish I had some of that talent.

Unfortunately, I was born without that funny bone, so I'll blame my parents.

 

[James B White]

OH my gosh, crying! Which record is that, the one where if you play The Beatles White Album backwards, you hear it?

Well, he's talking about Philemon 1 and Onesimus, the runaway slave that Paul sent back to his master. It's not as straightforward as one might think, though. The following is from Wikipedia, Epistle to Philemon:

The modern scholarly consensus is that Onesimus was a runaway slave who became a Christian believer. Paul sent him back to face his aggrieved master, and sought in this letter to effect reconciliation between these two Christians. What is problematic is how Onesimus came to be with Paul. Various suggestions have been given: Onesimus being imprisoned with Paul; Onesimus being brought to Paul by others; Onesimus coming to Paul by chance (or in the Christian view, by divine providence); or Onesimus deliberately seeking Paul out, as a friend of his master's, in order to be reconciled.

However, Onesimus' status as a runaway slave was challenged by Allen Dwight Callahan in an article published in the Harvard Theological Review. In this article Callahan notes that the weight of proving Onesimus' servile identity falls on verse 16 [for reference, verses 15 and 16: thou shouldest receive him for ever; 16 Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?]; beyond this "nothing in the text conclusively indicates that Onesimus was ever the chattel of the letter's chief addressee. Moreover, the expectations fostered by the traditional fugitive slave hypothesis go unrealized in the letter. Modern commentators, even those committed to the prevailing interpretation, have tacitly admitted as much."

The passage was often discussed in the period in relation to the fugitive slave law, many examples of which are here: http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=a&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan 1_2 1800,cd_maxec 31_2 1865&num=10#tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:Jan 1_2 1800,cd_maxec 31_2 1865&tbm=bks&q=onesimus fugitive

Here's a typical pro-slavery example, from Pictures of Slavery and Anti-Slavery, John Bell Robinson, 1863 at https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA372&dq=onesimus fugitive&ei=Ml6RVLaHF4qYyASB54GoAw&id=fjFcAAAAcAAJ&output=html_text (some typos due to machine reading)

It seems that while Paul was imprisoned in Rome for preaching Christ, he did not cease to preach the gospel; and under his preaching, a servant by the name of Onesimus was converted by Paul, and becoming a true child of God, he made it known to his spiritual father, "St. Paul," that he was a fugitive slave from the service of one Philemon. Onesimus became a great comforter to St. Paul, after his (Onesimus) conversion. Yet as soon as Paul learned that Onesimus was a fugitive slave, and had a Christian master, he rested not until he got Onesimus ofi' to his master Philemon, with the epistle alluded to; though he needed Onesimus much to 'wait on him, but he could not consent to keep him there without his master's (" Philemon") permission. Therefore he started him with the letter to his _master, and by that letter he intercedes between Philemon and his fugitive servant Onesimus, thereby to get Philemon to pardon his servant, and if he would do so, and take him back to his service, he (Paul) would pay for whatever 'Onesimus might have takenfrom his master previous to his flight. See 18th verse. "If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee aught, put that on mine account."

How does this contrast with modern abolitionism, the underground railroad, the negro female conductor, andthe Boston congregation alluded to in a previous chapter.

 

[ForeverFree]

This seems like a good place to mention that Howell Cobb was the uncle of Mildred Lewis Rutherford, the Historian General of the UDC and a major figure in crafting and perpetuating the Lost Cause narrative in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Mildred is on the left.

I guess she wanted to prove that her uncle's theories were right after all.

- Alan

 

[dvrmte]

The south...that seceded, that stole federal property, that fired on federal ships and seized federal forts, that imprisoned federal soldiers, that fired on Sumter, that started the war...the south. That is historical fact and whether you or others want to or not, it cannot be disputed. It...is...fact.

Yes, that is the normal American narrative(excuse) that someone else has always started it, never mind the provocations, interference, and interventions.

 

[Pat Young]

OH my gosh, crying! Which record is that, the one where if you play The Beatles White Album backwards, you hear it?

lol

 

[DanF]

Yes, that is the normal American narrative(excuse) that someone else has always started it, never mind the provocations, interference, and interventions.

That would make the Neo confederate view the "abnormal American narrative (excuse)?

 

[DanF]

OH my gosh, crying! Which record is that, the one where if you play The Beatles White Album backwards, you hear it?

If you play it backward you hear,

"Lincoln is the devil. "

 

[IcarusPhoenix]

Yes, that is the normal American narrative(excuse) that someone else has always started it, never mind the provocations, interference, and interventions.

This is the second time in as many days that I've felt like someone should b having a conversation with you about pots and kettles...

 

[dvrmte]

That would make the Neo confederate view the "abnormal American narrative (excuse)?

Probably so, do you know any Neo-Confederates? You seem to think you can pick them out of the woodwork. If you think I'm one then you've definitely flipped your lid.

 

[dvrmte]

This is the second time in as many days that I've felt like someone should b having a conversation with you about pots and kettles...

Any time you're ready Mr. Specialist.

 

[Elennsar]

I miss the days when the most contentious thing I heard from dvrmte was arguing that Longstreet was less aggressive than Stonewall Jackson.

At least that involved some nice talks about how From Manassas to Appomattox is a terrible, terrible book.