America's Caesar

[ole]

Well, I'm outta here.

I'm right behind you, Diane. There are more important things to occupy my time, like trimming fingernails, staring out the window, taking a nap, and garbage night.

 

[DanF]

I did not know that particular bit of conspiracy theory. Wow, a secret military occupation whose masterminds decided to leave a hint, for no apparent reason, in the yellow fringe around a flag. Wow.

Apparently these diabolicaly clever masterminds are a bit absent minded and had to leave themselves visual clues so they could remember things.

 

[DanF]

Caesar. The word is Caesar.

This is progress, first you can correctly spell caesar, eventualy you might recognize the difference begween him and Lincoln.

But then, I may be being a bit too optimistic.

 

[Malingerer]

I'm right behind you, Diane. There are more important things to occupy my time, like trimming fingernails, staring out the window, taking a nap, and garbage night.

Mmmmm....what happens on "garbage night"? Sounds interesting.

 

[ole]

Mmmmm....what happens on "garbage night"? Sounds interesting.

Maybe "put out the trash" would have been more descriptive. Speaking of trash ......

 

[Elennsar]

Howell Cobb, before the Civil War, was a accomplished and respected American. He was a "racist" no doubt, to use the modern term. Apparently, from your posts you are of the opinion that no Confederate Southerner (other that perhaps Lee) has any redeeming qualities or is deserving of any respect. I apologize if I get your take on it wrong. I believe your attitude is as far to the extreme on the one side as some of the "Lost Cause" attitudes that you oppose.

Frankly, if you asked me to write a list of ten 19th century Americans I respected wholeheartedly, I'd need all day to find five, and at least three of them would be less than ideal.

I don't think it's a matter of not having "any" redeeming qualities. It's not a matter of not deserving "any" respect. If that's how it came off I apologize.

What I meant to say was - What did Cobb do to merit being a name we know that exalts him above the men who never returned from Sharpsburg (purposefully using the name they would have used)?


The vast majority of the Confederacy's (And Union's, but you mentioned a Confederate general so I'll focus this on the Confederacy) upper ranks simply don't stand out to me as having anything to their credit over those who are half-forgotten.


So I just wanted to know - am I missing something? Did Cobb do something to earn a higher place than his peers? Or was he just in a generally regarded as "successful" crowd (Sic transit gloria mundi says I) , based on things like being in Congress or being a general, that don't necessarily mean any sterling personal qualities of the sort that are relevant to how I honor or ignore his memory as better than any other mucky-mucky of an era whose moral standards I don't hold to and whose social categories mean nothing to me?

If you think he's good enough for flowers, I'm not trying to disaude you - I just feel he's one of those people given fame without anything particularly meriting more respect than any other of that class of "successful" people.

 

[E_just_E]

He was a noted Constitutional scholar and an expert on race relations.

In Apostle Paul's time, most slaves and masters were of the same race
No POWs or paroles: The captured in battles or in invasions became slaves.

 

[IcarusPhoenix]

IMHO Cobb would have made a better POTCS than Davis. But now I think I have derailed this thread so bad, it's not funny.

Don't worry about it; this thread didn't have rails to begin with, and while it's always been a joke, it was never funny.

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

Oh, great. Another steaming pile of neo-Confederate male bovine excrement. Just what the world needs.

 

[JerseyBart]

Okay, and which side made all of that necessary? Which side forced the hand of the other? Empire historically wins, this is true... but is it right? Killing in war is necessary, yes, but is it ever Christian? Desperate times and measures do not equate to a peacetime plan of government. The North would have yellow fringes on its flag forever, signifying what, exactly? Decoration, or outright military control?

The south...that seceded, that stole federal property, that fired on federal ships and seized federal forts, that imprisoned federal soldiers, that fired on Sumter, that started the war...the south. That is historical fact and whether you or others want to or not, it cannot be disputed. It...is...fact.

 

[DR_Hanna]

What I meant to say was - What did Cobb do to merit being a name we know that exalts him above the men who never returned from Sharpsburg (purposefully using the name they would have used)?

The vast majority of the Confederacy's (And Union's, but you mentioned a Confederate general so I'll focus this on the Confederacy) upper ranks simply don't stand out to me as having anything to their credit over those who are half-forgotten.

Why does Howell Cobb have to be some kind of saint or hero to be interesting - or important?
It is a plain old fact that Howell Cobb was an important historical figure, a well known and influential Sourtherner - a participant in the Confederacy - a famous Athenian and UGA grad, and was in the thick of things from the impending crisis through to the end of the War.
That actually makes him a pretty interesting person. To say that he is a window into the mind of the South at the time of the Civil War doesn't even half describe it.
I don't make a religion of the Civil War and I don't much care about the saintliness or other qualities of the participants. If I restricted my interest in historical figures to those of the highest moral character, I'd be done pretty much at Joan of Arc, wouldn't I?

 

[DanF]

The south...that seceded, that stole federal property, that fired on federal ships and seized federal forts, that imprisoned federal soldiers, that fired on Sumter, that started the war...the south. That is historical fact and whether you or others want to or not, it cannot be disputed. It...is...fact.

Thats all you got, just facts?

 

[Pat Young]

In Apostle Paul's time, most slaves and masters were of the same race
No POWs or paroles: The captured in battles or in invasions became slaves.

So he would be ok with white Southerners being enslaved after the Civil War? Got it.

 

[unionblue]

View attachment 54059

CSA Today,

Yeah, that history, always around to kill the dream, right?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[CSA Today]

CSA Today,

Yeah, that history, always around to kill the dream, right?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Right.

 

[unionblue]

Right.

I could go with a time-honored tactic among some and say thanks for agreeing with me, but that would be a trite act.

The point is, history, REAL history, should be applied on this thread, on all threads, and it is plainly not being done.

Initial rants can be distracting, even entertaining at times, but they make for poor learning and history.

Hence my post, your reply, and my reply.

Nice talking to you.

Unionblue

 

[CSA Today]

I could go with a time-honored tactic among some and say thanks for agreeing with me, but that would be a trite act.

The point is, history, REAL history, should be applied on this thread, on all threads, and it is plainly not being done.

Initial rants can be distracting, even entertaining at times, but they make for poor learning and history.

Hence my post, your reply, and my reply.

Nice talking to you.

Unionblue

My pleasure, after all we do have a historical connection going back to ole Virginny.

 

[Elennsar]

Why does Howell Cobb have to be some kind of saint or hero to be interesting - or important?
It is a plain old fact that Howell Cobb was an important historical figure, a well known and influential Sourtherner - a participant in the Confederacy - a famous Athenian and UGA grad, and was in the thick of things from the impending crisis through to the end of the War.
That actually makes him a pretty interesting person. To say that he is a window into the mind of the South at the time of the Civil War doesn't even half describe it.
I don't make a religion of the Civil War and I don't much care about the saintliness or other qualities of the participants. If I restricted my interest in historical figures to those of the highest moral character, I'd be done pretty much at Joan of Arc, wouldn't I?

Here, let me illustrate better what I have in mind - Mercer died in '64, but he's a good "Who?" to point out:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2006.05.1053:article=4

Sure, Cobb was more important in the sense he had a higher rank (major general), more political standing, and all that - but I don't see why those indicate that he was a more interesting or memorable person than Colonel Mercer, who is described by the text above in very different terms than his entry in Bruce Allardice's Confederate Colonels, which suggests he was not seen as particularly shining by all those who saw him.

If all Cobb has to his name is fame and power, then he's just not a very interesting guy, whether he was moral or immoral. My budget for historical research is too slender to spend on bland people.

If you see him as not bland, well, my only question is "What makes that so?" His entry in Generals in Gray did more to dull than whet my appetite - what his principles were doesn't change that for better or worse.

 

[ole]

The Cobbs were major fire eaters. They had more to do with secession than military prowess (which was quite bland). If your interest in them is military, forget it. If your interest is in secession, they rank at the top.

 

[Elennsar]

Makes sense to me, Ole.

If that's what he wants to read about, I hope he always has the money and time to do so. No reason my limited interest in that should limit his interest in that.