A More Perfect Union?

pamc153PA

Major
Forum Host
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Location
Pennsylvania
The Preamble to the Constitution states the reason for the creation of the Constitution was, in part, "in Order to create a more perfect Union." Obviously, as illustrated by the outbreak of the Civil War, this did not automatically happen. However, my question is:

Did the Civil War itself create a "more perfect Union" in its wake?

Thoughts?

Pam
 
The Civil War ended a rebellion in 1865.

The Union was preserved.

Nothing is perfect especially the Union of the US.

Reconstruction did not create a perfect Union.

In the end the Union was preserved.

Was there ever a perfect Union 1789-present?
 
It may not have been perfect, but it may have been improved - or not - by the war.

Personally, I think it was improved. No more hypocritical practice of slavery while claiming to be a nation of democracy.
 
The Union was made more complete, more excellent and more completely accurate, than the AoC. the word more implies that making the Union perfect was/is a desired, but, ongoing projec, with the implieed understanding(as the authors of the Constitution, did) that perfection could only be approximated(not attained) by man, on earth.
 
Dear PamC153PA;

Excellent question as usual. :)

For me, knowing how religion paid a huge roll in the founding of the USA; as to my opinions about the preamble; those who believe in "God" -- knows that humans were imperfect and the flaws of being a human could never achieve true perfection but, in the journey to perfection is invaluable in of itself and causes a person to strive for their own perfection and happiness.

In order to form a more perfect union; is the language that has much to do with a human, a Nation, business, marriage and friendships. Not one of these are 'perfect' to which causes much in the way of compromises and even so--'imperfect.' But, knowing all these imperfections, it is the willingness to move forward in a never ending quest to be more perfect then the last frame of time and or form of measurement.

It is my personal journey when interacting with another; to leave them in the same or better condition/position then I found them in. If I can cause a smile, help them in some way, open the door, give up my seat for another. One sees these as perfecting the better side of our nature.
My life is always a matter of bettering of what it was. Thus, a more perfect life--not "the perfect life."

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
 
Somehow I have come to suspect that they were not talking about perfection as we commonly think of it but rather about consolidation, that the Union was a more consolidated government, and it does not follow that a completely consolidated or perfect government would be best. I think one of the antifederalist papers used the term "perfect" in this sense:

"the government reported by the convention does not go to a perfect and entire consolidation" -Antifederalist #1

"to make a union of this kind perfect, it is necessary to abolish all inferior governments, and to give the general one compleat legislative, executive and judicial powers to every purpose." -Antifederalist #12
 
Well, I certainly will not argue against the interpretation that the Constitution is 'More' consolidationist than the AoC, thus is 'more' perfect than it predecessor(in a consolidationist sense, of course).
 
Well, I certainly will not argue against the interpretation that the Constitution is 'More' consolidationist than the AoC, thus is 'more' perfect than it predecessor (in a consolidationist sense, of course).

In this sense, I think the war or rather reconstruction resulted in a more perfect/consolidated Union ... but I don't think it resulted in a more excellent Union. Specifically, I think the 14th Amendment has been construed in such a way as to subvert our frame of government, and I find nothing excellent about that.
 
Somehow I have come to suspect that they were not talking about perfection as we commonly think of it but rather about consolidation, that the Union was a more consolidated government, and it does not follow that a completely consolidated or perfect government would be best. I think one of the antifederalist papers used the term "perfect" in this sense:

"the government reported by the convention does not go to a perfect and entire consolidation" -Antifederalist #1

"to make a union of this kind perfect, it is necessary to abolish all inferior governments, and to give the general one compleat legislative, executive and judicial powers to every purpose." -Antifederalist #12
I lean heavily in this same direction.
 
Well, I certainly will not argue against the interpretation that the Constitution is 'More' consolidationist than the AoC, thus is 'more' perfect than it predecessor(in a consolidationist sense, of course).

This quote is from the opinion of US Supreme Court Chief Justice Chase in the post-Civil War Texas v. White case:

"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?" (Emphasis, of course, is mine.)

Chase's background, of course, includes being a part of the Lincoln administration and so he has a certain approach to these issues. Still, if he is right in what he says above, the Civil War did indeed make the Union "more perfect" by settling the de facto issue of what the nation would do when faced with a unilateral secession effort.

Tim
 
... Still, if he is right in what he says above, the Civil War did indeed make the Union "more perfect" by settling the de facto issue of what the nation would do when faced with a unilateral secession effort.

Tim
I've long speculated that the absence of a court trial for secession was evidence of tacit agreement with that idea.
Wandering a little, sorry.
 
I've long speculated that the absence of a court trial for secession was evidence of tacit agreement with that idea.
Wandering a little, sorry.

Part of all those decisions by the government is whether or not a trial is worthwhile. In 1865, there was no reason for the government to pursue trials against Confederate leaders unless they wanted vengenance with a capital V.

The issue of secession had been settled de facto with 4 years of war. On the odds, staging a trial on "secession" could do no more than verify what had been done; at worst, it could create a legal mess for the government. That's why there is no trial of secession.

Tim
 
Part of all those decisions by the government is whether or not a trial is worthwhile. In 1865, there was no reason for the government to pursue trials against Confederate leaders unless they wanted vengenance with a capital V.

The issue of secession had been settled de facto with 4 years of war. On the odds, staging a trial on "secession" could do no more than verify what had been done; at worst, it could create a legal mess for the government. That's why there is no trial of secession.

Tim
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant why the seceding states didn't sue for separation in court before shooting at US soldiers.
[Edit: meaning that if they really believed it was legal, why not try to settle it without bloodshed. Either it was felt to be illegal or there were perceived to be political benefits from the effusion of blood. ]
 
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant why the seceding states didn't sue for separation in court before shooting at US soldiers.
[Edit: meaning that if they really believed it was legal, why not try to settle it without bloodshed. Either it was felt to be illegal or there were perceived to be political benefits from the effusion of blood. ]

Personally, I feel the seceding states would have had their best shot at being allowed to leave by proceeding through the Congress. In the courts, they'd have had more difficulty, and I think the most likely result would have been for the Supreme Court to boot it over to the Congress for resolution as belonging properly in the political sphere -- even if the Supreme Court felt "the South" had been severely injured.

In that same Texas v White case, Chief Justice Chase had this to say:
=====
When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.
=====

The "revolution" part of that is what we had: the American Civil War, the exercise of the "natural right of revolution". That's nothing more than trial by combat, and gets us to the de facto resolution on the "right of secession" in the Union: it does not exist.

What Chase is saying with the "through consent of the States" part is that a State could leave the Union by proceding through the Congress and/or the Amendment process.

What Chase is denying in all this is the unilateral "right of secession" being claimed by "the South" in 1860. That's not too surprising. What legal system could survive if it said any member could declare at any time the rules did not apply to them?

What a court could do, however, is to decide that "the South" had been so badly injured by the actions of others, and the other states had conspired to unjustly prevent her from leaving, that the only appropriate and just remedy would be for the Court to declare her freed from all responsibilities and connections to the Union. Chase doesn't mention it, but that is a possible legal decision.

Attaining it would impose a massive burden of proof on "the South" to show the intolerable injuries done to them by the other states. If you strip all the rhetoric/emotion out and try to look at the events of the 1850s with some objectivity, it becomes very difficult to see how the South could have proved they had been seriously injured to that extent. "The North" had, essentially, done little or nothing to "the South", and the immediate cause of secession seems to have been the election of someone "the South" didn't like who might have done things that might have injured "the South".

I think the secessionists didn't proceed through the courts because they knew they had a weak case. Even if they thought they could eventually succeed, they thought that time was against them politically, and that a long drawn-out process was more likely to result in a cooling of tempers and reconcilliation after sober thought by the people. So they decided to strike while the iron was hot, to fan the flames and rush the people into secession, and they did. Thus Civil War and Reconstruction came.

Tim
 
"The North" had, essentially, done little or nothing to "the South", and the immediate cause of secession seems to have been the election of someone "the South" didn't like who might have done things that might have injured "the South".
I would very much like to have read a record of the debate in congress on the subject of the tariffs harming the value of cotton, but there wasn't one, was there? Meanwhile, back to the originally scheduled program.

The Convention met because most everyone agreed that the Articles of Confederation wasn't cutting it. Making a big deal out of "more perfect" just means that we don't completely understand mid-nineteenth century American-English.

Ole
 
The Convention met because most everyone agreed that the Articles of Confederation wasn't cutting it. Making a big deal out of "more perfect" just means that we don't completely understand mid-nineteenth century American-English.

IMHO, "more perfect" simply meant "better".

Tim
 
Historically, the leaders of the rebellion, the leaders in the government of the United colonies/states in General congress assembled, the initiators of the DoI, the framers of the AoC And the Constitution, were, essentially the same people.
A Grand Unity of Purpose(as Lincoln might say) leading to a United States of America and the Constitution does seem to have inspired their actions, if not, always their words.
Something better! could, indeed, have been their watch word, for what they expected from their toils and tribulations.
 

Learn About Us
About CivilWarTalk
Contact the Webmaster
Meet the Staff
Link to CivilWarTalk
Join Our Community
Register
Browse Forums
View Today's Discussions
Search the Forum
Get Help
FAQ
Student Guide
Forum Rules & Etiquette
Copyright / DMCA

     Contact Us CivilwarTalk on Facebook CivilWarTalk on YouTube CivilWarTalk on Twitter RSS Feed

Bringing the American Civil War and More to Life.
© 1999 - , CIVILWARTALK, LLC - Site Version 10.0

SlaveryTalk.com - SecessionTalk.com - CivilWarTalk.com - ReconstructionTalk.com
Back
Top