Tell me more! 1862-dated Austrian Lorenz Rifle

[frankstah]

Hi all,

Recently picked up a Lorenz and it is my second ever black powder rifle. I am new to the world of BP in general but figured I'd post here since my entire BP collection was made during the Civil War (Lorenz, Burnside, Colt M1849). I've done some reading on this rifle and I believe it is still chambered in .54. The lock is marked "862" and is has the Austrian Eagle mark, though damaged from pitting. Additionally, I think this was also a contract rifle as there is no cheek pad and I could not find legible markings anywhere on the outer barrel, and if there were marks most are ineligible due to pitting. However, if I look really closely near the top of the breech area there may be a makers mark in a "u" shape but it is impossible to read. I have not disassembled it yet and am still trying to find tutorials on how to do it. Since this is my first time working with BP I really don't want to mess things up by taking it apart incorrectly. There are several markings that I am interested in learning about however - on the buttplate and bands I believe it is marked "Py3" or "y21" (can't really tell) and "K" on the other side, but I am not 100% sure. The stock seems original to the rifle but has certainly been refinished, maybe several times. This makes me believe it may have been reblue'd sometime in the past as well. Any insight on my rifle would be much appreciated!

 

[Don Dixon]

You have a Muster 1854, Type II, System Lorenz rifle musket that was manufactured by an Austrian Army contractor for export in 1862; probably very early in that year. The lock was manufactured by government lockmakers at the Vienna Arsenal, and they would have been transitioning shortly to work on Lorenz's new Muster 1862 rifle musket design. The .54 [actually .547] caliber, the fact that it is an export version, and the fact that it was blued tend to indicate that it was one of the weapons sold to the Federal Ordnance Office by Herman Böker and Company under their two 1861 contracts. The marks on the weapon's furniture are inspection marks for which no known crib sheet exists. If it had been manufactured for Austrian Army use and later blued while being refurbished in Liege there would be many more inspection marks on the barrel.

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Far be it for me to disagree with the Austrian Arm Expert, Don Dixon, but I do not think your photos show you have a Lorenz that was blued when it was made (or refurbished).
The color now showing must have been added after the metal rusted enough to create the visible pitting on all the parts. There is some blue color put on all the parts at some time, but it was after the metal rusted; you can't tell from looking what the metal finish was originally.

 

[RSMorris]

beautiful musket, would be proud to own it.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

beautiful musket, would be proud to own it.

Yes, and you can see that no one has polished it down, and the metal parts match for age and wear - that's what I look for when I look at an antique arm such as this. The wood and metal both look the same age.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

Wicked! I like it.

 

[frankstah]

You have a Muster 1854, Type II, System Lorenz rifle musket that was manufactured by an Austrian Army contractor for export in 1862; probably very early in that year. The lock was manufactured by government lockmakers at the Vienna Arsenal, and they would have been transitioning shortly to work on Lorenz's new Muster 1862 rifle musket design. The .54 [actually .547] caliber, the fact that it is an export version, and the fact that it was blued tend to indicate that it was one of the weapons sold to the Federal Ordnance Office by Herman Böker and Company under their two 1861 contracts. The marks on the weapon's furniture are inspection marks for which no known crib sheet exists. If it had been manufactured for Austrian Army use and later blued while being refurbished in Liege there would be many more inspection marks on the barrel.

Regards,
Don Dixon

Wow, thank you very much Mr. Dixon for that detailed explanation and it's amazing to even narrow it down to a potential Hermann Boker import. Not sure it was messed with much as the metal pitting and edges are still quite sharp, and it has a very nice patina. I know my ram rod is a repro and the nipple was replaced but everything else seems original and bear the same inspection mark/number.

I did notice that behind the barrel on the right side there is a significant chunk of wood missing. I'm assuming this is due to repeated firing? The corrosion around the nipple area also seem to indicate that this rifle was well used.

Thanks everyone for your input and once I figure out how to disassemble her I'll report back on any markings beneath the wood-line.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

You will hear collectors describe that missing wood as having been "burnt away" from repeated firing. But that's just an expression, and the wood is really not burned away. The firing of the percussion cap creates split second flash of fire, and as an experiment, try to burn a chunk of wood by lighting paper match, hold for 1/2 second to the wood, light another paper match, hold for 1/2 second to the wood, and so on....to "burn" away wood like that, it would be a long term, day and night, 24 /7 project, like a prisoner tunneling out of a prison cell with a teaspoon!
The percussion cap "spatter" is corrosive, and the residue rusts metal and it softens wood and makes it "punky," so that it can just crumble.
This corrosive effect is why you will see heavy rusting and pitting at the breach end of a barrel, just where that percussion cap residue from firing is deposited.

 

[Lubliner]

Really nice piece you have there, and excellent photography skills. Curious with the discrepancy on the bluing and not meaning to start a debate, but is it possible when @Don Dixon describes the bluing representative to the shipment here, that it was blued after arrival and not before, and is identifiable because of this? Thank you for sharing, @frankstah. Maybe if it stayed in stock for 6 years and then blued before shipment overseas?
Lubliner.

 

[frankstah]

Really nice piece you have there, and excellent photography skills. Curious with the discrepancy on the bluing and not meaning to start a debate, but is it possible when @Don Dixon describes the bluing representative to the shipment here, that it was blued after arrival and not before, and is identifiable because of this? Thank you for sharing, @frankstah. Maybe if it stayed in stock for 6 years and then blued before shipment overseas?
Lubliner.

Thank you for the feedback! I was actually wondering the same thing. If I recall, The finishes on the Lorenz usually varies (blued, browned, bright polish). That said I wouldn't be surprised if it was re-blued while it was in the States. The finish seems to be a nice mix of blue/brown and as Jeff in Ohio mentioned it may have been age-rusted. Were Hermann Boker imports usually blue'ed on arrival before being sent out to the Ordnance Office?

 

[Lubliner]

Thank you for the feedback! I was actually wondering the same thing. If I recall, The finishes on the Lorenz usually varies (blued, browned, bright polish). That said I wouldn't be surprised if it was re-blued while it was in the States. The finish seems to be a nice mix of blue/brown and as Jeff in Ohio mentioned it may have been age-rusted. Were Hermann Boker imports usually blue'ed on arrival before being sent out to the Ordnance Office?

He does say they were in the process of transitioning to the new 1862 Muster design. In brief, this may have either rushed normal project activity to complete a contract or delayed due dates. With this in mind I think we agree.
Lubliner.

 

[Seduzal]

Nice looking musket.

 

[captaindrew]

Nice piece!

 

[Don Dixon]

Curious with the discrepancy on the bluing and not meaning to start a debate, but is it possible when @Don Dixon describes the bluing representative to the shipment here, that it was blued after arrival and not before, and is identifiable because of this? Thank you for sharing, @frankstah. Maybe if it stayed in stock for 6 years and then blued before shipment overseas?

I was actually wondering the same thing. If I recall, The finishes on the Lorenz usually varies (blued, browned, bright polish). That said I wouldn't be surprised if it was re-blued while it was in the States. The finish seems to be a nice mix of blue/brown and as Jeff in Ohio mentioned it may have been age-rusted. Were Hermann Boker imports usually blue'ed on arrival before being sent out to the Ordnance Office?

By 1841 the Austrian Army had determined that obsessive polishing of weapons had a very damaging effect on them and General von Augustin had forbidden the practice. Shoulder arms manufactured after that point were generally finished arsenal bright, which does not mean highly polished. The emphasis became one of cleaning and maintenance. Light surface rust was neutralized by rubbing with a greasy rag. For heavier spots of rust, the soldier buffed out the spot using a slurry of fine brick dust and olive oil, with a piece of soft wood as a lap. This meant that over time the exposed metal surfaces of a Muster 1842 musket and the later Muster 1854 rifle musket acquired a mottled appearance as the iron naturally rust blued through exposure to moisture. One commonly sees it in antique Muster 1854s. So, the metal on a new or used Muster 1854 rifle musket would have been delivered unfinished unless the contractor ordered it blued or had it blued after he acquired it to meet his contract.

My response to the OP was based upon his photographs and his observations. His Muster 1854 rifles musket is blued, it is ".54" caliber, the blued lock is dated 1862, and it is an Type II export variant. Three contractors provided the Federal Ordnance Office with blued or "browned" [actually rust blued] Muster 1854 rifle muskets. The work was done in Europe - either Vienna or Liege - and I have seen nothing to indicate that the Ordnance Office or any contractors had weapons blued after arrival in America. The contractors were:

Böker and Company: A portion of Böker's deliveries were a mix of Austrian Army and export variants in both .547 and .58 caliber which were blued. Many of the former Austrian Army weapons were used, including weapons captured from the Austrians in the 2nd Italian War of Independence in 1859. Some of the captured weapons and used weapons sold Böker by the Austrian Army required major renovation, which was largely accomplished in Liege, and in some instances might have involved the replacement of major end items like stocks. The quality of some of Böker's deliveries was questionable and company correspondence describes some of its purchases from the Austrians as "seconds."

Solomon Dingee and Company: Dingee contracted to provide blued .58 caliber weapons, but included in its deliveries a small number in ".55" caliber. All deliveries should have been new production and it appears from the record that the majority were export variants.

Marcellus Hartley: Hartley's blued guns were delivered late in 1862 into 1863 and were export variants in .58 caliber.

In balance the OP's rifle - if it was blued in Europe - probably came from one of Böker's deliveries. I cannot discount the possibility that it was blued after the war by an unknown someone, it just doesn't strike me as likely. For a better evaluation I would have to examine and disassemble the gun. For example, what does the metal of the barrel look like under the wood?

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

As Don says, the real test of whether this was blued when made or issued would be to dismount the barrel and inspect the bottom of the barrel, hidden now by the stock.
HOWEVER, as an owner of a solid and complete Lorenz, the risks of breaking this down to this point do not seem worth what you will find.
You would risk:

• screw driver slipping and scratching wood or metal
• buggering screw heads / slots
• scraping finish off the barrel as you slide the bands forward and off the barrel - this may not sound bad, but if you get bright scratches in that nice patina finish, you will always regret it.
• breaking off chips of wood as you remove the barrel from the wood stock

I think the dark finish on the metal of your Lorenz looks like it was put on after the wear and rust occurred, but it is attractive, and I don't think you will learn anything worth knowing by taking this gun apart. There is no extra value is having a Boker imported Lorenz - learning is always good, but until you have gotten some experience by taking apart a few dozen rifles or muskets, not worth the risk of making your gun look worse!
Enjoy it as it is!

 

[frontrank2]

Nice historical musket. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Lubliner]

As Don says, the real test of whether this was blued when made or issued would be to dismount the barrel and inspect the bottom of the barrel, hidden now by the stock.
HOWEVER, as an owner of a solid and complete Lorenz, the risks of breaking this down to this point do not seem worth what you will find.
You would risk:

• screw driver slipping and scratching wood or metal
• buggering screw heads / slots
• scraping finish off the barrel as you slide the bands forward and off the barrel - this may not sound bad, but if you get bright scratches in that nice patina finish, you will always regret it.
• breaking off chips of wood as you remove the barrel from the wood stock

I think the dark finish on the metal of your Lorenz looks like it was put on after the wear and rust occurred, but it is attractive, and I don't think you will learn anything worth knowing by taking this gun apart. There is no extra value is having a Boker imported Lorenz - learning is always good, but until you have taken apart a few dozen rifles or musket, not worth the risk of making you gun look worse!
Enjoy it as it is!

So, it is very possible when this rifle and others were completed, they possibly sat for a length of time, warehoused or racked, and then blued when put under contract for shipment overseas? As I referenced earlier due to the limitations of manpower and transition, and time, they may have been set aside unblued until time permitted, or when the contract made it necessary for completion. This was the point of discrepancy that I couldn't straighten out, and I have no qualification to say either of you are wrong.
Thanks,
Lubliner.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Remember those two brothers in Tennessee who amassed 17,700 bottles of hand sanitizer back in early 2020? When they saw high demand and shortages for hand sanitizer, they traveled all over Tennessee and Kentucky to dollar-type stores to buy all they could find and then started selling them on Amazon for up to $70 each?
Well, when that hit the news, I thought to my self "This is just like those arms buyers traveling around Europe at the start of the War" These fellows bought from every possible source, including searching out warehouses of used and semi-obsolete items. They would have these cleaned up and sometimes prettied up to make them more saleable to buyers, North or South.
Well, that's a description of Boker.

 

[Don Dixon]

So, it is very possible when this rifle and others were completed, they possibly sat for a length of time, warehoused or racked, and then blued when put under contract for shipment overseas? As I referenced earlier due to the limitations of manpower and transition, and time, they may have been set aside unblued until time permitted, or when the contract made it necessary for completion. This was the point of discrepancy that I couldn't straighten out, and I have no qualification to say either of you are wrong.
Thanks,
Lubliner.

On M-1 the Austrian Kaiser could put about 600,000 men in the field. In addition to arming these men there was a requirement for significant war reserve stocks of weapons to arm reserve units, drafted men, and replace battlefield losses of weapons. The Austrian ordnance system's arsenals, particularly the Vienna Arsenal, consequently contained large stocks of new, used, and obsolescent weapons as war reserves. Every army of any significance in the world does this. There were also quantities of Austrian arms captured by the French and Piedmontese in the 2nd Italian War of Independence in 1859 which were available in the European arms markets.

The Civil War afforded the Austrian Army the opportunity to clean out its supply of obsolescent System Augustin tubelock weapons, damaged and worn weapons, and a large number of serviceable Muster 1854, Type I, rifle muskets. The funds received were to be used to manufacture Muster 1862 product improved rifle muskets and for other military projects. As Muster 1862 rifle production came on-line additional weapons could be released for sale. Austrian correspondence indicates that there was concern that sales be reasonably matched with new production so that reserve stocks did not fall too low. In addition there were the Austrian Army arms contractors who manufactured Austrian Army model weapons under contract for the importers. Some contracted guns were blued by the contractors under the provisions of their contracts with the importers. The arms from war reserve stocks and captured arms which were blued were blued by houses of the Liege gun trade under contract with the importers. Muster 1854 rifle muskets were not blued by the Austrian Army.

The gun runners were making similar deals with armies and manufacturers all across Europe.

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[frankstah]

Just caught up on everything. Thank you for all the feedback and further discussion regarding my rifle. I don't mind when/if it was re-blue'd, I'm just happy that I have an original and complete Lorenz and not a parts mix-master.

As mentioned earlier I am hesitant taking it apart since I am new to Antiques and Black Powder firearms in general, and I share Jeff in Ohio's sentiment that disassembling it may not be worth the risk. I know this Lorenz has been to the range before but I am also hesitant on shooting it. I've shot my Burnside and its a great shooter, but from everything I've read the quality was top notch and quite consistent throughout its production. Since my Lorenz is most certainly a contract import, I am not 100% sure on the quality of the metal and if it is safe to fire.