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1853 Enfield - Markings

Discussion in 'Civil War Weapons and Ammunition' started by ConfederateCanuck, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. ConfederateCanuck

    ConfederateCanuck Cadet

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    Lock in Gun.jpg Hi everyone. I am new to the Forums, and I was hoping to get some help with the 1853 Enfield I just bought. Being from Canada, we don’t see as many of these beautiful guns as you all do. The Enfield I bought is undoubtedly original, but it has had an uncertain past, and I don’t know the “story” about this particular gun.
    Lock - Internal Tipping Lawden and Proof Mark P.jpg

    From what I have been able to determine on my own, everything, except the barrel, is of original British manufacture. For example, the “1862 Tower” lock is made by Tipping & Lawden (see engraving in 2nd photo above), one of the Birmingham firms, which apparently sold <1,000 of the 1853 Enfields to the South during the Civil War (see quote below):

    “Here we have a P-1853 enfield made … by a rare Birmingham / London manufacturer, Tipping & Lawden. They didn't make many for the Confederates less than 1000 were made by them. “ (this quote taken from: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1317353971628359&id=287016961328737 )
    Tipping and Lawden Factory.jpg
    Can anyone confirm those sales numbers or provide any additional information about Tipping & Lawden? I have no idea whether or not this gun was Confederate or not. I suspect not, but I have no real way of knowing.

    The hammer (P47 marking), the trigger assembly (S marking), the stock (P marking), the brass endcap (faint 28 near bottom), and one of the barrel bands (B5V marking) have English numerals and letters (see photos below), but no markings by a specific manufacturer.

    Also, inside the stock along the barrel channel (behind the ramrod spring) there are some unclear markings that might be lettering.

    As for the barrel (not shown), it is clearly of Nepalese manufacture as it has numerous Nepalese markings, so I don’t have any questions about that.

    So it appears to me that at some point, somebody replaced an old rotted original barrel with the Nepalese barrel that appears to be in suitable condition for live firing (to be safely tested in a few weeks when I get the chance).

    Does anyone have any information about the markings shown in these photos (below)? Any first-hand knowledge, or any references that could help (books, websites) would be greatly appreciated.

    Also, can anyone provide an estimate on what an original barrel might cost and where I can find one? Does anyone have one for sale?

    This is my first 1853 Enfield, and it won’t be the last…..I just love these old beauties. Thanks to you all for taking the time to help out!

    Hammer (P47 marking):
    Hammer Proof Mark P47.jpg

    Trigger Assembly (S marking):

    Trigger Assembly Proof Mark S.jpg

    Stock (P marking):

    Stock Proof Mark P.jpg

    Brass Endcap (faint 28 near bottom):
    Brass Endcap Markings.jpg


    Barrel band (B5V markings):

    Barrel Band Markings.jpg

    Stock (possible letters inside channel behind ramrod spring):
    Stock - Possible Letters.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018

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  3. Lanyard Puller

    Lanyard Puller Corporal

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    Welcome to the forum.

    Couldn't get your photos to work..... They just popped up...
    will post later about your P53.
     
  4. JOHN42768

    JOHN42768 Captain Trivia Game Winner

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    Welcome, enjoy
     
  5. Lanyard Puller

    Lanyard Puller Corporal

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    Yes it's a Confederate imported P53, with a Nepalese barrel? (maybe barrel] but rear sight at least.
    What are the marks on the breech and underside of the barrel ??


    • The anchor/S stamp is correct, and all of the other marks on the parts you photographed are inspection or supplier inventory stamps found on all contract Enfields. Parts are not interchangeable.

    It came through the blockade with tons of other military and medical supplies for the CS government. If it had a soldiers name [usually carved into the stock} on it it could possibly be traced, but as it stands it's just a nice CS P53.

    Unless you have experience in shooting these things I'd advise against "testing" the barrel.
     
    tbuckley, WJC, captaindrew and 2 others like this.
  6. Larryh86GT

    Larryh86GT First Sergeant

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    Welcome from WNY. Nice Enfield.
     
  7. ConfederateCanuck

    ConfederateCanuck Cadet

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    The barrel has many Nepalese markings on the top and bottom, so it's definitely manufactured by the Nepalese. Sorry, I don't have any pictures of the barrel markings with me at the moment, but I can post later if you are interested.

    Re the anchor/S stamp....I don't have an anchor mark anywhere...I wish I did!! So what are you referring to...the S on the trigger guard? I assumed that was an inspectors mark from the factory.

    There is a large T carved into the left side of the rear stock. I didn't mention it in the post since it clearly was not a manufacturer or proof mark. I can post a photo later as well.

    Thanks for your reply!
     
  8. ConfederateCanuck

    ConfederateCanuck Cadet

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    Actually, I have one photo here of the Nepalese markings on the top of the barrel...
    20181028_164328.jpg
     
  9. Lanyard Puller

    Lanyard Puller Corporal

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    The link in your first post took me to some photos with an anchor/S..... assumed incorrectly this was your P53.

    Without that I'm afraid it's just a nice Enfield with a Nepalese barrel
     
  10. ucvrelics.com

    ucvrelics.com 1st Lieutenant Forum Host

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    Welcome From THE Heart Of Dixie. @Lanyard Puller is spot on with his evaluation and you got to love a guy who can field strip an Enfield
     
    Stone in the wall likes this.
  11. ConfederateCanuck

    ConfederateCanuck Cadet

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    Thanks for the assessment. As I had suspected, it was unlikely to be Confederate. Do absolutely all of the Confederate Enfields have the JS Anchor markings? Were they marked that way before they shipped from England (i.e. the ones intercepted by the Yankee blockade would also show the JS Anchor?) (as for the URL photo you saw with the JS Anchor, I had problems with posting pictures via URLs so the photo you saw definitely was NOT mine....I have no idea how that ended up in my post. My URLs didn't show up so I uploaded my own photos directly.)
     
    Jobe Holiday likes this.
  12. Lanyard Puller

    Lanyard Puller Corporal

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    NO they do not all have a JS/anc., and YES they were numbered {some} and marked before acceptance by the CS agents in England, and certainly before shipping.

    The Confederate Enfields and other English arms would make a great collection with nothing else included.

    The English Connection, and Suppliers to the Confederacy Vol. 1 &2 are truly "must have" books before delving into this area.

    Unfortunately dies are being made today which are very close to the original, and faked CS Enfields {and other weapons} are offered for sale frequently.
     
  13. captaindrew

    captaindrew 1st Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

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    Welcome from South Florida, nice piece, thanks for sharing.
     
  14. ConfederateCanuck

    ConfederateCanuck Cadet

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    So, aside from my questions about the gun markings, just a reminder that I am also looking for any information about the Tipping & Lawden company, and what their sales to the North/South might have been. Lanyard Puller .... I will be on the hunt for those books (pretty sure I've seen them before on Amazon)....looks like I have a lot of reading to do!

    Thanks everyone for the welcomes and your replies.
     
    Jobe Holiday likes this.
  15. WJC

    WJC Moderator Moderator

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    Welcome and thanks for posting the great photos! Regardless of pedigree, it's still a nice piece!
    Now that you're here, be sure to join in the discussions: new perspectives are always appreciated!
     
  16. Jobe Holiday

    Jobe Holiday Sergeant Major

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    Lanyard Puller's tag line is "Your first purchase should be reference books." Take it to heart, it is the best advice you will ever get!
    J.
     
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  17. ucvrelics.com

    ucvrelics.com 1st Lieutenant Forum Host

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    I disagree, Your first purchase should be admission to @Lanyard Puller collection:D . For me its always been the shows that aren't just "For Sale" shows but ones you can see the items in person and ask questions hopefully hold and inspect the items and get the knowledge from the collection up close and personnel.
     
  18. Jobe Holiday

    Jobe Holiday Sergeant Major

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    The combination of reference books, and then the opportunity to see and handle the actual items is priceless!
    J
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  19. tbuckley

    tbuckley Corporal

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    Welcome from eastern Ohio.
     
  20. Lanyard Puller

    Lanyard Puller Corporal

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    [QUOTE="ucvrelics.com. I disagree, Your first purchase should be admission to @Lanyard Puller collection:D.

    What kind words, appreciated, BUT.....

    OMG... what have you done.... It's a dingy little unheated attic room, up a narrow rotting staircase with no electricity. My dogs don't like strangers and we store no provisions for stragglers, or parking for buses. :O o:

    As an aside I was fortunate to become the keeper of very rare CS sword from the recent Cowans auction of William Kochs collection. Stop the caravan to my house and I'll post the story and sword {s} as soon as I get it in early Dec.
     
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  21. Craig L Barry

    Craig L Barry Sergeant Major

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    It looks like something put together from disassociated parts as opposed to a Tipping & Lawden with a Nepali-made barrel. The rear swivel is the oval RSAF variety, the Palmer barrel bands have markings usually associated with WD government contract arms.

    Tipping & Lawden is actually a father & son outfit. There is a fair amount on them in the Suppliers Vol I book.
     

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