Musket Gun identification

[bayonet]

The fit at barrel and tang is because the barrel is hooked into the standing breech attached to the stock before wedging down. It is quite common in light shotguns used in Britain in the 1840s. It enables the barrel to be easily removed for cleaning in hot water without the possibility of damaging the stock and lock. (Black Powder shooter know what I mean) Yes, screws and even hammers are often replaced or added when missing too.

Yeah but that does not look like a shotgun or is it. Didn't tell us if inside the barrel had any grooves or is smoothbore.

 

[Old Soldier]

Yeah but that does not look like a shotgun or is it. Didn't tell us if inside the barrel had any grooves or is smoothbore.

Most 'sporting' guns in Britain at the time were smoothbore. Rifles cost a fortune and were restricted mainly to military use or large animal shoots, the most likely place in Britain being Scotland. All single-barreled smoothbores - shotguns with no chokes - were like that here in the 1840s. We also had double-barreled shotguns too - even in the days of flintlocks, but they were just called 'guns' because they could use any suitable ammunition. Chokes were brought in mostly after the adoption of breech-loading, shot cartridges for double-barrelled shotguns. Proofs after 1855 gave the bore number and, after 1875, if choked, 'NOT FOR BALL'. From 1887 it stated CHOKE for guns with chokes. This gun's proofs say it was proofed before 1855 as it has no bore number which appeared between the two proof marks.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Yeah but that does not look like a shotgun or is it. Didn't tell us if inside the barrel had any grooves or is smoothbore.

One thing to keep in mind is that it was common to ream out a rifle to create a shotgun. By the same token, smoothbores were rifled & flintlocks converted to percussion. Long guns were expensive. Recycling them was ubiquitous. Any combination of conversions is no surprise.

 

[Old Soldier]

The thing to remember about British guns is that there are no 'wildernesses' in Britain. All shooting is on someone's land and most of what you shoot at is 'game' - named species - usually edible small animals or birds and there are no dangerous animals in Britain, unlike the USA, for example. Vermin and other 'undesirables' and self-protection apart (fair game), you needed permission or a licence to shoot. The usual means was by a smoothbore long arm which was relatively accurate and subject to range and ammunition limitations. Most birds are brought down with shot - a spread of small lead shot. Rifling is not needed, nor is a long range. Most small animals are in the same category, the small shot reducing body damage. Shooting was more fun than trapping or snaring - the other alternative.
The rifle was not really needed and was only used by specialist hunters, the guys shooting for food to eat or sell used the smoothbore. There was little change in the 19th Century, even today, the shotgun is preferred, but that is a lot more advanced technically than these earlier weapons. For standard black powder long arms, very few used ball, most would use some form of shot, the type depending on the target. Ball was for soldiers - or men. (Abroad it was a different matter - but against different targets. Pistols almost always used ball, as pistols were for self-protection) Bear this in mind when reviewing British civilian long arms.

 

[Rfourn]

First, let me state that I am not an expert, nor am I a well-versed amateur.

From what reading I have done, I understand that the back action lock dates to the 1840's or later. It is usually not a military lock, although I have seen some on French or Belgian made military firearms. That circular embellishment at the end of the trigger guard has a name when discussing trade weapons made by gun makers in the U.S. Unfortunately I have forgotten what that was and my reference sources are back in Virginia. I suspect that your gun was a British trade gun made between 1840 and 1900. It may have had a full stock. It was not unusual for Native Americans to remove part of the stock to reduce weight and remove the butt plate to make it into a tool for scraping hides. It would appear that the ramrod tubes fixed to the rib under the barrel after the forestock was removed have been lost. Often, Native American owned weapons were decorated with tacks. Later gun owners sometimes removed the tacks to make the gun more sellable. If this is done you might notice holes with rings around them on the stock. The holes were made by the tacks while the rings around them were made by the tack heads being pressed into the wood. If these were period tacks and not added later the holes should be square in cross section. Checkered hand grips appeared on trade guns during the 19th century.

You might want to check the butt of the stock for damage. One strategy followed by Native Americans was to pour powder down the barrel, drop or spit the lead ball (slightly smaller in diameter that the ball the gun is supposed to use) down the barrel and then instead of ramming it down, slam the gun butt on the ground to force the ball to the bottom of the barrel. Since the gun would often be used for targets of relatively short range, the shooter didn't have to seat it perfectly.

I don't know that trade guns were only sold to Native Americans or that Native Americans were the only ones who made the modifications like the ones found on your gun. If, in fact, your gun was originally owned by Native Americans, you may have an interesting family story to discover. I'll try to get back to my reference sources as soon as I can and see what they can tell me.

Thank you so much for your detailed reply and good information. Looks like maybe the Butt plate might have been damaged by loading the gun maybe.Also the tac marks looks like you described for the period.

First, let me state that I am not an expert, nor am I a well-versed amateur.

From what reading I have done, I understand that the back action lock dates to the 1840's or later. It is usually not a military lock, although I have seen some on French or Belgian made military firearms. That circular embellishment at the end of the trigger guard has a name when discussing trade weapons made by gun makers in the U.S. Unfortunately I have forgotten what that was and my reference sources are back in Virginia. I suspect that your gun was a British trade gun made between 1840 and 1900. It may have had a full stock. It was not unusual for Native Americans to remove part of the stock to reduce weight and remove the butt plate to make it into a tool for scraping hides. It would appear that the ramrod tubes fixed to the rib under the barrel after the forestock was removed have been lost. Often, Native American owned weapons were decorated with tacks. Later gun owners sometimes removed the tacks to make the gun more sellable. If this is done you might notice holes with rings around them on the stock. The holes were made by the tacks while the rings around them were made by the tack heads being pressed into the wood. If these were period tacks and not added later the holes should be square in cross section. Checkered hand grips appeared on trade guns during the 19th century.

You might want to check the butt of the stock for damage. One strategy followed by Native Americans was to pour powder down the barrel, drop or spit the lead ball (slightly smaller in diameter that the ball the gun is supposed to use) down the barrel and then instead of ramming it down, slam the gun butt on the ground to force the ball to the bottom of the barrel. Since the gun would often be used for targets of relatively short range, the shooter didn't have to seat it perfectly.

I don't know that trade guns were only sold to Native Americans or that Native Americans were the only ones who made the modifications like the ones found on your gun. If, in fact, your gun was originally owned by Native Americans, you may have an interesting family story to discover. I'll try to get back to my reference sources as soon as I can and see what they can tell me.

 

[Rfourn]

Thank you so much for your detail information.

 

[Rfourn]

First, let me state that I am not an expert, nor am I a well-versed amateur.

From what reading I have done, I understand that the back action lock dates to the 1840's or later. It is usually not a military lock, although I have seen some on French or Belgian made military firearms. That circular embellishment at the end of the trigger guard has a name when discussing trade weapons made by gun makers in the U.S. Unfortunately I have forgotten what that was and my reference sources are back in Virginia. I suspect that your gun was a British trade gun made between 1840 and 1900. It may have had a full stock. It was not unusual for Native Americans to remove part of the stock to reduce weight and remove the butt plate to make it into a tool for scraping hides. It would appear that the ramrod tubes fixed to the rib under the barrel after the forestock was removed have been lost. Often, Native American owned weapons were decorated with tacks. Later gun owners sometimes removed the tacks to make the gun more sellable. If this is done you might notice holes with rings around them on the stock. The holes were made by the tacks while the rings around them were made by the tack heads being pressed into the wood. If these were period tacks and not added later the holes should be square in cross section. Checkered hand grips appeared on trade guns during the 19th century.

You might want to check the butt of the stock for damage. One strategy followed by Native Americans was to pour powder down the barrel, drop or spit the lead ball (slightly smaller in diameter that the ball the gun is supposed to use) down the barrel and then instead of ramming it down, slam the gun butt on the ground to force the ball to the bottom of the barrel. Since the gun would often be used for targets of relatively short range, the shooter didn't have to seat it perfectly.

I don't know that trade guns were only sold to Native Americans or that Native Americans were the only ones who made the modifications like the ones found on your gun. If, in fact, your gun was originally owned by Native Americans, you may have an interesting family story to discover. I'll try to get back to my reference sources as soon as I can and see what they can tell me.

Thank you so much for your detailed reply and good information. Looks like maybe the Butt plate might have been damaged by loading the gun maybe.Also the tac marks looks like you described for the period.

 

[johan_steele]

Some very good information has been put forward on this thread. It is also important to understand many shotguns, which this appears to be, were built locally from disassociated parts. Especially in the later half of the 19th century. Local gunsmiths of the cottage industry variety would source components from a variety of sources to include disassembly and repurposing older parts. Ie screws from one vendor, a barrel from another, lock from another etc.

This was, to me, a high quality single barrel shotgun when new. The butt plate was removed and lost at some point. A fairly easy replacement. The scratches on the butt appear to be wood shrinkage and could be repaired by the application of BLO or something like Kramer's Best but I would suggest a replacement butt plate regardless.

 

[Rfourn]

View attachment 560671View attachment 560672View attachment 560673Morning al
My name is Bob Fournier and I was just given my Great Grandfathers Musket Gun.
He was born in 1850 in Quebec, Canada and settled in Mont-Louis Quebec.
I was hoping someone could give me information on the gun and hopefully try to find some of the missing parts.

Yeah but that does not look like a shotgun or is it. Didn't tell us if inside the barrel had any grooves or is smoothbore.

No grooves, thx

 

[Rfourn]

View attachment 560671View attachment 560672View attachment 560673Morning al
My name is Bob Fournier and I was just given my Great Grandfathers Musket Gun.
He was born in 1850 in Quebec, Canada and settled in Mont-Louis Quebec.
I was hoping someone could give me information on the gun and hopefully try to find some of the missing parts.

Here are a few more detail pictures

 

[bayonet]

Here are a few more detail pictures

View attachment 560909

View attachment 560910

View attachment 560911

View attachment 560912

View attachment 560913

Yeah GG Grandpa probably used it shoot whatever was raiding the chicken coop or caught the Farm Boy who lived down the road sneaking out your G Grandma's window. Told GG Grandma to get the Preacher. Next a shotgun wedding with your GG Grandpa holding that shotgun. Now that's a nice family heirloom!

 

[Rfourn]

I may have found what you are looking for. You might want to turn the other cheek… in photos anyways.


View attachment 560773
The Lyman cap & ball Trade Rifle & Plaines Rifles are very similar to the one you have.

Link to Lyman Trade Rifle parts:

https://www.lymanproducts.com/amfile/file/download/file/263/category/853/

View attachment 560781
The spiral finial on the trigger guard is very distinctive. I only saw a single example except on the Lyman kits.

View attachment 560782

Lyman sells muzzle loader rifle kits. The hand grip part of the trigger guard is the same shape as that on your piece. It also has the sliding dovetail barrels for the ramrod.

The model that most fits is the "Trade Rifle." It has a single locking wedge on the 1/2 stock without a metal cap on the hand grip.

It has a single trigger, unlike the "Plaines Rifle" I used as an example. It simply had the best image quality that I found.

It could be that Lyman used the trigger guard detail & single fore stock pin because it was how trade guns were made. In any case, I did not see a single example of it anywhere else.

Link:

British trade musket - Canada's History

Musket evokes spiritual side of hunting.

www.canadashistory.ca

The Lyman Trade Rifles are of high quality. The reviews are consistently excellent. An Italian company makes them.

Conclusion: There are some differences between the Lyman & trade gun pattern rifle in the photos. At least it puts you onto a possible source for parts.

Lyman made the Trade Rifle in .54 caliber, which is unusual. That is a potential source for a period correct ram rod. The sliding dovetail rammer guides may not be a perfect fit, but should be no trouble to adjust to fit. Same with the front sight. Obviously you don't want to start filing away on your piece. However, a gunsmith could easily make the Lyman parts fit.

Good luck, post photos when you restore your family relic.

Northwest Trade Guns

This image shows the same proof marks as your piece on an English Northwest Trade Gun. It is from the article liked. If you look close, it looks a lot like the same spiral trigger guard finial as yours.

View attachment 560783

Link:

English Proof Marks

Does anyone know about how to find a date range for these English proof marks from the barrel of this smooth bore gun? Any help would sure be appreciated!

www.muzzleloadingforum.com

View attachment 560795
Northwest Trade Guns had a very distinctive what we would call a logo. This distinctive dragon plate was a fixture of flintlocks until 1877; cap & ball rifles until the end of the Century. It was not always this elaborate. Other examples

View attachment 560797

I knew almost nothing about Northwest Trade Guns before starting this search. The Longhunters that came over the mountains into Tennessee have been a long time interest. This was something new & the dragon plates are really something. The link is to the article where these images came from.


Link:

https://www.speakingcedar.com/in-depth- northwest-guns.html

Link:

Antique Saint Louis Marked 54 Cal Plains Percussion Rifle F. Hellingha

Percussion 54 Caliber Rifle, back Action, Barrel Marked "F. Hellinghaus St Louis" Half Stock length Stock. Lock Not Marked. Frederick Hellinghaus was active in St. Louis from 1840-1847. After moving from Baltimore Maryland. He eventually settled in San Francisco, Ca Circa: Mid 19th Century Size...

kentantiquegallery.com

Thanks Reah, very helpful info you shared. The kits and parts might help me get the ones I need. But more importantly the gun kits are base on old muskets and give me places to look for the original makers…St. Lewis Hawken, Henry Leman. I might be way off, I'm just overwhelmed by all the details. Today I'm bring my gun to a Gun and Militaria show and hoping I can get more info on the gun. If I do get some good leads I will share with the group. Thanks again for the help. This gun has been in the family for many years and I'm the fourth generation to have it. My Great grandfathers home is still standing and being maintained in Mont-Louis Quebec.There is no question as who Owned this gun.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Thanks Reah, very helpful info you shared. The kits and parts might help me get the ones I need. But more importantly the gun kits are base on old muskets and give me places to look for the original makers…St. Lewis Hawken, Henry Leman. I might be way off, I'm just overwhelmed by all the details. Today I'm bring my gun to a Gun and Militaria show and hoping I can get more info on the gun. If I do get some good leads I will share with the group. Thanks again for the help. This gun has been in the family for many years and I'm the fourth generation to have it. My Great grandfathers home is still standing and being maintained in Mont-Louis Quebec.There is no question as who Owned this gun.

My thanks to you, this has been a very novel investigation. That very distinctive finger guard intrigues me. This morning I found a flintlock shotgun with that spiral… very blacksmith looking… guard. An early American gunsmith also used that style of guard. I am by way of thinking it was something was used as a trademark, as we would say today.

I am anxious to hear what you found out at the show. While you are there, think about getting one of the Lehman kits. You wont want to fire your relic, but no doubt want to experience the smell of black powder on cool autumn morning. The reviews of them as deer hunting rifles are very good.

This has been CWT at its best.

This link will get your attention.

Link:

Nelson Lewis Troy N.Y. Buck & Ball Percussion .65 Cal/12 Gauge (AS175) - Collectors Firearms

Discover Nelson Lewis Troy N.Y. Buck & Ball Percussion .65 Cal/12 Gauge (AS175) at Collectors Firearms - Buy Now

collectorsfirearms.com

RC

 

[Rfourn]

View attachment 560671View attachment 560672View attachment 560673Morning al
My name is Bob Fournier and I was just given my Great Grandfathers Musket Gun.
He was born in 1850 in Quebec, Canada and settled in Mont-Louis Quebec.
I was hoping someone could give me information on the gun and hopefully try to find some of the missing parts.

Well I attended a gun show today and there was some old guns and muskets for sale but no one could identify my gun. They said they use to have some elders that where experts but they are all gone.
I'm thankful I got some good leads from here and I need to continue and maybe try to find answers closer to home.

 

[R. Porter]

I had a chance to get back home for a day and look up my sources on trade guns. I found a similar example but the stock doesn't match. The gun in the OP appears to be a shotgun/musket/fowler which would be useful as a trade gun or around the farm for hunting or protection from critters. The OP firearm could have been full stocked originally, then shortened with a rib added or it may have been half stocked. It may have been a trade gun or it may not have. You might need to look at old firearm advertisements to zero in on a maker.

Here is an image of the trade rifle I found:

 

[Old Soldier]

Yes. It is very British, but that also mean Indian/Afghan. As I said earlier the marks on the barrel and INSIDE the lock could tell the story, but we would have to see. BTW - most British sporting longarms of this period were built as half-stocked. The only full stocked arms tended to be military or quasi-military arms.

 

[Rfourn]

I had a chance to get back home for a day and look up my sources on trade guns. I found a similar example but the stock doesn't match. The gun in the OP appears to be a shotgun/musket/fowler which would be useful as a trade gun or around the farm for hunting or protection from critters. The OP firearm could have been full stocked originally, then shortened with a rib added or it may have been half stocked. It may have been a trade gun or it may not have. You might need to look at old firearm advertisements to zero in on a maker.

Here is an image of the trade rifle I found:

View attachment 561283View attachment 561282

Thank You for the info, the bottom gun looks very similar, the trigger gard and it's also missing the ram rod!

 

[Rfourn]

Here are a few more detail pictures

View attachment 560909

View attachment 560910

View attachment 560911

View attachment 560912

View attachment 560913

 

[Rfourn]

Questij

Yes. It is very British, but that also mean Indian/Afghan. As I said earlier the marks on the barrel and INSIDE the lock could tell the story, but we would have to see. BTW - most British sporting longarms of this period were built as half-stocked. The only full stocked arms tended to be military or quasi-military arms.

Question…if the stamps indicates the barrel was made between 1813-1855 and the percussion guns came out in 1840. Would that mean my gun was made between 1840-1855?

 

[Old Soldier]

Questij

Question…if the stamps indicates the barrel was made between 1813-1855 and the percussion guns came out in 1840. Would that mean my gun was made between 1840-1855?

Yup. Why not? it could have been made AFTER 1855 too. Trade guns in particular were well behind technical advances since they were using, and were supplied, with OLD technology. For example North West Trade guns were mainly flintlock because black powder was all that was available. What is the point of selling a percussion gun when you can't get hold of percussion caps? if this IS a British gun (which I know it is) all this was available beyond 1870 (export only) even when the British market was concentrating on breech-loaders. (The Snider and other cartridge weapons were VERY expensive in the civil market) It looks like a civil gun made around 1840-50 so it is percussion all the way. Given the backlock, it could even be from the 1830s, and getting 'old' in the 1840s.

Durs Egg was a famous London Gunmaker who died in 1831.