Forrest Forrest's Cavalry Corps Flag

[gary]

Great thread. thanks everyone.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

Because he declared that he'd be dead in the cold, cold ground before he'd recognize Missourah!




Wait, no; that was Grandpa Simpson...

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Great thread. thanks everyone.

It is a great thread !

 

[UCVRelics]

One of the flags Forrest had was made for him. Also, there had to be some differences in order to determine who it was, as his escort always carried his flag it was known as Forrest Headquarters flag.

 

[John S. Carter]

DixieRifles is right! Nobody really knows for sure but the best explanation was he was mad at Kentucky for not going whole hog into the Confederate cause, being a Southern state. As DixieRifles says, he wasn't the only one to use a 12 star flag but he did use his in a unique way - it was to signal to the enemy that he was personally on the field. Forrest was masterful with psychological warfare and his subordinates would sometimes use the flag to make their enemy think the general was where he wasn't. Sherman said, paraphrasing Wellington, that Forrest's presence on the field was worth 40,000 troops. Close to it!

There is a state flag that has the state seal on the top of the St. Andrew cross.If one knows if this cross is a early Confederate flag please to inform me.The state is Florida which makes me wonder how they have maintained this flag since all other state flags with any markings of the Confederacy have had to be removed, It is like Maryland still has a state song which lyrics which mentions black servants/slaves,''Maryland , My Maryland'' .

 

[UCVRelics]

There is a state flag that has the state seal on the top of the St. Andrew cross.If one knows if this cross is a early Confederate flag please to inform me.The state is Florida which makes me wonder how they have maintained this flag since all other state flags with any markings of the Confederacy have had to be removed, It is like Maryland still has a state song which lyrics which mentions black servants/slaves,''Maryland , My Maryland'' .

It might be better if you started a thread on your Florida flag as you would get more input from folks on it as this thread concerns the Forrest Flag.

 

[John S. Carter]

Hello,

Here's the details for the Mobile Depot battle flags. We think the inspiration for them only having twelve stars is because Gen. PGT Beauregard's personal 12 star silk flag made by one of the Cary's was sent to Mobile for safe keeping during the war. No doubt it was displayed and seen by many people including the flag makers Jackson and Srah Belknap (his wife). Jackson was a sign painter by trade and did political signs and banners as well before the war. As the war clouds gathered he did early flags for Alabama and Mississippi units advertising his flag business in Mobile and other newspapers.

Starting in the Fall of 1863, when Joseph E. Johnston finally got around to standardizing the battle flags of the Department of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana after Vicksburgs fall (he had a lot to do other than flags prior to that), the contract went through the Mobile Depot which supplied that department and its troops and was given to Jackson Belknap to fill.

The first issues of these flags were given to the cavalry division of William Hicks Jackson on October 1863. Then over the witner the Mobile garrison got them; Stephen D. Lee's cavalry corps and the Army of Mississippi (later the Third Corps of the Army of Tennessee when they got sent to Georgia in May 1864) under Leonidas Polk. By late Spring of 1864, Jackson had become clerk of courts for Gen. Dabney Maury, commander of Mobile, so Sarah took over the flag making trade and kept producing them into July 1864. It is utterly incorrect to call these the "Forrest battle flag" because, as one here has already stated, he was not only not the only command to use these (as I have shown) but he was also the LAST command to get them! His flags did not reach his cavalry corps until July 1864, AFTER Brice's Crossroads but in time for his famous Memphis Raid. In this raid, the 2nd/22nd Tennessee Cavalry of Col. Clark Barteau, lost their brand new Mobile Depot flag to an Illinois unit. This flag is held in Memphis today at the Pink Palace Museum. Image attached for you. Forrest's corps would fight under these flags, with some exceptions, for the rest of the war.

So what did his troopers carry at Brice's Crossroads on June 10, 1864? Mostly First National flags plus a few home made Second National flags courtesy of some ladies in Mississippi. I know the 7th Tennessee Cavalry carried one as did the 18th Mississippi Cavalry Battalion who lost their Second National flag to the 81st Illinois there.

The deal with this pattern battle flag and Forrest/Kentucky is pure hogwash; nothing truthful at all about it espcially since he had nothing to do with the design of the flag and was the last command to even get them!

Hope this helps.

Flag Guy

View attachment 303805

What is the difference in Forrest's battle flag and the battle flag which the Army of Virginia carried.? This is the battle flag then the single star flag is the national flag,correct? Did the Union have two seperate flags also ?Thank you for your assistance..If the CSA national flag is flown would anyone know what flag that is? Fly that flag on a pole and see if anyone notices!

 

[John S. Carter]

It might be better if you started a thread on your Florida flag as you would get more input from folks on it as this thread concerns the Forrest Flag.

Then I ask what is the difference in the Forrest flag and the flag which the Army of Virginia carried into battle as their battle flag and is referred to as the Confederate battle flag as the national flag was only one star?

 

[UCVRelics]

I do fly the 1st National and don't really care if anyone knows what it is or not. We are discussing the Forrest headquarters flag with no star in the center.

Forrest Flag

ANV Flag

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Did the Union have two seperate flags also

Nope.

The Union also carried many different flags into battle.

Then I ask what is the difference in the Forrest flag and the flag which the Army of Virginia carried into battle as their battle flag

Well, I'll agree with ya about that fact.

"Flags" can easily become a very confusing topic at any time.
@AUG gave one of the best explanations . . . a few posts back.

 

[AUG]

Then I ask what is the difference in the Forrest flag and the flag which the Army of Virginia carried into battle as their battle flag and is referred to as the Confederate battle flag as the national flag was only one star?

The ANV was not the only army to use the Confederate Battle Flag, it also saw use in the Western Theater and Trans-Mississippi. As mentioned earlier, the AoT and other commands in the Western Theater were largely issued rectangular CBFs from late 1863 to 65.

Check out this site: http://www.confederate-flags.org/index.html

Everything is explained there, written by the leading ACW flag experts. Scroll down and click on the different armies listed on the right side.

 

[AUG]

One of the flags Forrest had was made for him. Also, there had to be some differences in order to determine who it was, as his escort always carried his flag it was known as Forrest Headquarters flag.
View attachment 306613
View attachment 306614
View attachment 306615
View attachment 306616

Is this from more than one account? Looks like the two paragraphs at center describe a flag presented to the 7th Tennessee Cavalry, while the other two mention Forrest's headquarters flag.

 

[Carronade]

So the "missing" state was Kentucky. According to the link @AUG provided, the 13th star was not incorporated until May 1862 although Kentucky had been recognized as the 13th state in December 1861. It may just have taken some time for the flag designers to get the word and make the change. There was also a brief interval in which Kentucky tried to remain neutral, with both sides concerned that any overt action might push Kentucky onto the opposite side, so perhaps the Confederacy did not want to make its claim too blatant.

Later in 1862 of course, the Confederates took the offensive into Kentucky and sought to establish a pro-Confederate government, so it became appropriate to add the star. It also allowed them to liken their cause to the 13 colonies.

 

[kGs]

What's the source of this Perkings quote referenced below?
"Issued the 13-star battle flag, Forrest shortly after began using a 12-star pattern, with the center star removed, so that when his enemies saw it they would know it was Forrest on the field: psychological warfare, and it worked. His Color-bearer, Sgt Perkings, said his commander used the 12-star battle flag to strike fear into his opponent.