Forrest Forrest's Cavalry Corps Flag

[kepi]

I'm sure this has been covered, but indulge me for a moment.
Why are there only 12 stars on the Forrest flag? I've heard differing accounts. Thanks!

 

[DixieRifles]

Because you don't argue with General Forrest.

Seriously, I don't think his flag was the only one like this. I will have to pull out one of my books to check
Here is one.

 

[diane]

DixieRifles is right! Nobody really knows for sure but the best explanation was he was mad at Kentucky for not going whole hog into the Confederate cause, being a Southern state. As DixieRifles says, he wasn't the only one to use a 12 star flag but he did use his in a unique way - it was to signal to the enemy that he was personally on the field. Forrest was masterful with psychological warfare and his subordinates would sometimes use the flag to make their enemy think the general was where he wasn't. Sherman said, paraphrasing Wellington, that Forrest's presence on the field was worth 40,000 troops. Close to it!

 

[MissREP]

I didn't realize that Forrest's flag had only 12 stars...but it's interesting. Something else to tuck away into my mental "Forrest File".

 

[kepi]

DixieRifles is right! Nobody really knows for sure but the best explanation was he was mad at Kentucky for not going whole hog into the Confederate cause, being a Southern state. As DixieRifles says, he wasn't the only one to use a 12 star flag but he did use his in a unique way - it was to signal to the enemy that he was personally on the field. Forrest was masterful with psychological warfare and his subordinates would sometimes use the flag to make their enemy think the general was where he wasn't. Sherman said, paraphrasing Wellington, that Forrest's presence on the field was worth 40,000 troops. Close to it!

That's one of the stories I heard and the one with the most support.

This is the flag of the 37th Mississippi, which is a sister regiment to the 38th (the one my GG-Grandfather served in)
This is what spiked my curiosity in the Forrest flag. I know the 38th (and the 37th) used the Van Dorn flag until it was surrendered at Vicksburg. Both unites received these flags after being assigned horses and placed under Forrest.

I haven't seen an image of the 38th Forrest Flag, but I'm sure it looks like this one.

 

[AUG]

That's one of the stories I heard and the one with the most support.



This is the flag of the 37th Mississippi, which is a sister regiment to the 38th (the one my GG-Grandfather served in)
This is what spiked my curiosity in the Forrest flag. I know the 38th (and the 37th) used the Van Dorn flag until it was surrendered at Vicksburg. Both unites received these flags after being assigned horses and placed under Forrest.

I haven't seen an image of the 38th Forrest Flag, but I'm sure it looks like this one.

This is one of the flags manufactured in Mobile (by civilian contractors) that were issued out to the Department of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana after Gen. Joe Johnston standardized the battle flags for that department in late 1863 (as well as the AoT shortly thereafter). It's what many of Forrest's men happened to be issued, so that may be why the 12-star flag has become synonymous with Forrest's Cavalry Corps, even though it was not truly his flag and was used by many other units outside of his command.

A lot of units that later made up the Third Corps of the AoT were also using the Mobile manufactured flags throughout 1864-65. On the other hand, the other two corps in the AoT were mostly issued flags manufactured in Augusta, Ga., which did have a 13th star in the center. As to why the Mobile flags only had 12, I'm not certain.

Here's another Mobile example, that of the 2nd/6th Missouri Infantry, Cockrell's Missouri Brigade:

 

[DixieRifles]

I found this mini-flag that has a nice white border. I painted out the center star. I carried it in my back-pack on a hike through the trails of Fort Pillow State Park.

 

[Cavalry Charger]

I didn't realize that Forrest's flag had only 12 stars...but it's interesting. Something else to tuck away into my mental "Forrest File".

Good to know I'm not the only one with a mental 'Forrest File' Definitely a fascinating persona of the CW.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

This is one of the flags manufactured in Mobile (by civilian contractors) that were issued out to the Department of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana after Gen. Joe Johnston standardized the battle flags for that department in late 1863 (as well as the AoT shortly thereafter). It's what many of Forrest's men happened to be issued, so that may be why the 12-star flag has become synonymous with Forrest's Cavalry Corps, even though it was not truly his flag and was used by many other units outside of his command.

A lot of units that later made up the Third Corps of the AoT were also using the Mobile manufactured flags throughout 1864-65. On the other hand, the other two corps in the AoT were mostly issued flags manufactured in Augusta, Ga., which did have a 13th star in the center. As to why the Mobile flags only had 12, I'm not certain.

Here's another Mobile example, that of the 2nd/6th Missouri Infantry, Cockrell's Missouri Brigade:

That's what I've always thought.
I've never bought into the claim that Forrest was upset with the state of Kentucky.

If he was, (which I doubt) I've never viewed any source where he mentioned such.
IMO, Forrest was too pragmatic to be concerned with Kentucky politics

Forrest was masterful with psychological warfare and his subordinates would sometimes use the flag to make their enemy think the general was where he wasn't. Sherman said, paraphrasing Wellington, that Forrest's presence on the field was worth 40,000 troops. Close to it!

Now with this I agree !

If Forrest saw an opportunity to gain a psychological advantage, he would have taken full advantage.

Including flags.

 

[Flag Guy]

Because you don't argue with General Forrest.

Seriously, I don't think his flag was the only one like this. I will have to pull out one of my books to check
Here is one.

View attachment 249787

Hello,

This is the second issue Bragg pattern battle flag made in New Orleans under contract by Henry Cassidy in February/March 1862. The first versions were square, six pointed stars and only twelve of those. They were used by Bragg's Corps at Shiloh through the summer of 1862 and some into Stones River, December 1862. A few even served in the Atlanta Campaign of 1864. Polk's Corps were supposed to have used them for Shiloh as well but their shipment went to the wrong place and did not get to them until after that battle. POlk's men there used the large blue/green silk Polk Corps flags then changed to the square Bragg flags until the late Summer 0f 1862 when the smaller wool Polk Corps flags were issued. We knoe less about how many of the rectangular Bragg flags got issued and to whom although several survive. The Florida flag above is not the version they used at Shiloh - that one was squre and is held by the Florida Museum of History today.

Visit the web site www.confederate-flags.org and you will get the best information on these flags on the Internet. I am one of the contributors.

Flag Guy

 

[Flag Guy]

That's one of the stories I heard and the one with the most support.

View attachment 249790

This is the flag of the 37th Mississippi, which is a sister regiment to the 38th (the one my GG-Grandfather served in)
This is what spiked my curiosity in the Forrest flag. I know the 38th (and the 37th) used the Van Dorn flag until it was surrendered at Vicksburg. Both unites received these flags after being assigned horses and placed under Forrest.

I haven't seen an image of the 38th Forrest Flag, but I'm sure it looks like this one.

Hello,

The 37th Mississippi Infantry never served under Forrrest and remained as foot soldiers during the war. They served in Cantey's/O'Neal's Brigade of Edward Walthall's Division during the Atlanta Campaign of 1864 ending their war in the Mobile area. I will post below more about these Mobile Depot battle flags.

Flag Guy

 

[Flag Guy]

This is one of the flags manufactured in Mobile (by civilian contractors) that were issued out to the Department of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana after Gen. Joe Johnston standardized the battle flags for that department in late 1863 (as well as the AoT shortly thereafter). It's what many of Forrest's men happened to be issued, so that may be why the 12-star flag has become synonymous with Forrest's Cavalry Corps, even though it was not truly his flag and was used by many other units outside of his command.

A lot of units that later made up the Third Corps of the AoT were also using the Mobile manufactured flags throughout 1864-65. On the other hand, the other two corps in the AoT were mostly issued flags manufactured in Augusta, Ga., which did have a 13th star in the center. As to why the Mobile flags only had 12, I'm not certain.

Here's another Mobile example, that of the 2nd/6th Missouri Infantry, Cockrell's Missouri Brigade:

View attachment 94271

Hello,

Here's the details for the Mobile Depot battle flags. We think the inspiration for them only having twelve stars is because Gen. PGT Beauregard's personal 12 star silk flag made by one of the Cary's was sent to Mobile for safe keeping during the war. No doubt it was displayed and seen by many people including the flag makers Jackson and Srah Belknap (his wife). Jackson was a sign painter by trade and did political signs and banners as well before the war. As the war clouds gathered he did early flags for Alabama and Mississippi units advertising his flag business in Mobile and other newspapers.

Starting in the Fall of 1863, when Joseph E. Johnston finally got around to standardizing the battle flags of the Department of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana after Vicksburgs fall (he had a lot to do other than flags prior to that), the contract went through the Mobile Depot which supplied that department and its troops and was given to Jackson Belknap to fill.

The first issues of these flags were given to the cavalry division of William Hicks Jackson on October 1863. Then over the witner the Mobile garrison got them; Stephen D. Lee's cavalry corps and the Army of Mississippi (later the Third Corps of the Army of Tennessee when they got sent to Georgia in May 1864) under Leonidas Polk. By late Spring of 1864, Jackson had become clerk of courts for Gen. Dabney Maury, commander of Mobile, so Sarah took over the flag making trade and kept producing them into July 1864. It is utterly incorrect to call these the "Forrest battle flag" because, as one here has already stated, he was not only not the only command to use these (as I have shown) but he was also the LAST command to get them! His flags did not reach his cavalry corps until July 1864, AFTER Brice's Crossroads but in time for his famous Memphis Raid. In this raid, the 2nd/22nd Tennessee Cavalry of Col. Clark Barteau, lost their brand new Mobile Depot flag to an Illinois unit. This flag is held in Memphis today at the Pink Palace Museum. Image attached for you. Forrest's corps would fight under these flags, with some exceptions, for the rest of the war.

So what did his troopers carry at Brice's Crossroads on June 10, 1864? Mostly First National flags plus a few home made Second National flags courtesy of some ladies in Mississippi. I know the 7th Tennessee Cavalry carried one as did the 18th Mississippi Cavalry Battalion who lost their Second National flag to the 81st Illinois there.

The deal with this pattern battle flag and Forrest/Kentucky is pure hogwash; nothing truthful at all about it espcially since he had nothing to do with the design of the flag and was the last command to even get them!

Hope this helps.

Flag Guy

 

[DixieRifles]

In this raid, the 2nd/22nd Tennessee Cavalry of Col. Clark Barteau, lost their brand new Mobile Depot flag to an Illinois unit. This flag is held in Memphis today at the Pink Palace Museum. Image attached for you.

Great post. I forgot about Barteau's flag---which I have seen at the Pink Palace.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Hello,

This is the second issue Bragg pattern battle flag made in New Orleans under contract by Henry Cassidy in February/March 1862. The first versions were square, six pointed stars and only twelve of those. They were used by Bragg's Corps at Shiloh through the summer of 1862 and some into Stones River, December 1862. A few even served in the Atlanta Campaign of 1864. Polk's Corps were supposed to have used them for Shiloh as well but their shipment went to the wrong place and did not get to them until after that battle. POlk's men there used the large blue/green silk Polk Corps flags then changed to the square Bragg flags until the late Summer 0f 1862 when the smaller wool Polk Corps flags were issued. We knoe less about how many of the rectangular Bragg flags got issued and to whom although several survive. The Florida flag above is not the version they used at Shiloh - that one was squre and is held by the Florida Museum of History today.

Visit the web site www.confederate-flags.org and you will get the best information on these flags on the Internet. I am one of the contributors.

Flag Guy

Hello,

Here's the details for the Mobile Depot battle flags. We think the inspiration for them only having twelve stars is because Gen. PGT Beauregard's personal 12 star silk flag made by one of the Cary's was sent to Mobile for safe keeping during the war. No doubt it was displayed and seen by many people including the flag makers Jackson and Srah Belknap (his wife). Jackson was a sign painter by trade and did political signs and banners as well before the war. As the war clouds gathered he did early flags for Alabama and Mississippi units advertising his flag business in Mobile and other newspapers.

Starting in the Fall of 1863, when Joseph E. Johnston finally got around to standardizing the battle flags of the Department of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana after Vicksburgs fall (he had a lot to do other than flags prior to that), the contract went through the Mobile Depot which supplied that department and its troops and was given to Jackson Belknap to fill.

The first issues of these flags were given to the cavalry division of William Hicks Jackson on October 1863. Then over the witner the Mobile garrison got them; Stephen D. Lee's cavalry corps and the Army of Mississippi (later the Third Corps of the Army of Tennessee when they got sent to Georgia in May 1864) under Leonidas Polk. By late Spring of 1864, Jackson had become clerk of courts for Gen. Dabney Maury, commander of Mobile, so Sarah took over the flag making trade and kept producing them into July 1864. It is utterly incorrect to call these the "Forrest battle flag" because, as one here has already stated, he was not only not the only command to use these (as I have shown) but he was also the LAST command to get them! His flags did not reach his cavalry corps until July 1864, AFTER Brice's Crossroads but in time for his famous Memphis Raid. In this raid, the 2nd/22nd Tennessee Cavalry of Col. Clark Barteau, lost their brand new Mobile Depot flag to an Illinois unit. This flag is held in Memphis today at the Pink Palace Museum. Image attached for you. Forrest's corps would fight under these flags, with some exceptions, for the rest of the war.

So what did his troopers carry at Brice's Crossroads on June 10, 1864? Mostly First National flags plus a few home made Second National flags courtesy of some ladies in Mississippi. I know the 7th Tennessee Cavalry carried one as did the 18th Mississippi Cavalry Battalion who lost their Second National flag to the 81st Illinois there.

The deal with this pattern battle flag and Forrest/Kentucky is pure hogwash; nothing truthful at all about it espcially since he had nothing to do with the design of the flag and was the last command to even get them!

Hope this helps.

Flag Guy

View attachment 303805

@Flag Guy,

Great information.

Thanks for providing clarification and details about these flags !

 

[JeffCSA]

Really interesting and since I am having a replica flag made of the 1st Georgia Cavalry flag that is in the Museum of the Confederacy these flag threads really peak my interest now.

FlagGuy, I had two relatives with Napier that eventually became the 10th Tennessee Cavalry. From what records exist it is believed they were killed at Thompson's Station with Forrest or an action just a few weeks right after that battle. Any idea what flag Napier and, also, the 10th would have used? Would the 12 star 'Forrest Flag' have been on the field with them and, if so, what body of troops would have carried it?

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Would the 12 star 'Forrest Flag' have been on the field with them and, if so, what body of troops would have carried it?

Forrest's escort perhaps ?

 

[Carronade]

Hello,

Here's the details for the Mobile Depot battle flags. We think the inspiration for them only having twelve stars is because Gen. PGT Beauregard's personal 12 star silk flag made by one of the Cary's was sent to Mobile for safe keeping during the war. No doubt it was displayed and seen by many people including the flag makers Jackson and Srah Belknap (his wife). Jackson was a sign painter by trade and did political signs and banners as well before the war. As the war clouds gathered he did early flags for Alabama and Mississippi units advertising his flag business in Mobile and other newspapers.

Starting in the Fall of 1863, when Joseph E. Johnston finally got around to standardizing the battle flags of the Department of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana after Vicksburgs fall (he had a lot to do other than flags prior to that), the contract went through the Mobile Depot which supplied that department and its troops and was given to Jackson Belknap to fill.

The first issues of these flags were given to the cavalry division of William Hicks Jackson on October 1863. Then over the witner the Mobile garrison got them; Stephen D. Lee's cavalry corps and the Army of Mississippi (later the Third Corps of the Army of Tennessee when they got sent to Georgia in May 1864) under Leonidas Polk. By late Spring of 1864, Jackson had become clerk of courts for Gen. Dabney Maury, commander of Mobile, so Sarah took over the flag making trade and kept producing them into July 1864. It is utterly incorrect to call these the "Forrest battle flag" because, as one here has already stated, he was not only not the only command to use these (as I have shown) but he was also the LAST command to get them! His flags did not reach his cavalry corps until July 1864, AFTER Brice's Crossroads but in time for his famous Memphis Raid. In this raid, the 2nd/22nd Tennessee Cavalry of Col. Clark Barteau, lost their brand new Mobile Depot flag to an Illinois unit. This flag is held in Memphis today at the Pink Palace Museum. Image attached for you. Forrest's corps would fight under these flags, with some exceptions, for the rest of the war.

So what did his troopers carry at Brice's Crossroads on June 10, 1864? Mostly First National flags plus a few home made Second National flags courtesy of some ladies in Mississippi. I know the 7th Tennessee Cavalry carried one as did the 18th Mississippi Cavalry Battalion who lost their Second National flag to the 81st Illinois there.

The deal with this pattern battle flag and Forrest/Kentucky is pure hogwash; nothing truthful at all about it espcially since he had nothing to do with the design of the flag and was the last command to even get them!

Hope this helps.

Flag Guy

View attachment 303805

Thanks, Flag Guy, for a lot of good information. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see why the flag had 12 stars. Which state were they omitting? Was it Kentucky, even if the reason did not involve Forrest?

 

[diane]

Thanks, Flag Guy! Forrest was said to have been unhappy with Kentucky over not fully supporting the Confederacy and so kept the flag omitting it (or Missouri) but he had plenty of Kentuckians and Missourians with him. He used it to let the enemy know he was physically on the field - his troops did have all the proper flags. The group who usually carried this personal-presence signal was the escort - they alone were enough as Forrest would not personally be on the field without them - but he liked to use all the psyche-out he could get. If banging kettle drums would do it, he'd have them rolling!

 

[UCVRelics]

Great Info @Flag Guy. I have to agree with @diane on Forrest at his psyche ops. I have read an account on this and can't remember which book but I think its in Wyeth's

 

[AUG]

FlagGuy, I had two relatives with Napier that eventually became the 10th Tennessee Cavalry. From what records exist it is believed they were killed at Thompson's Station with Forrest or an action just a few weeks right after that battle. Any idea what flag Napier and, also, the 10th would have used? Would the 12 star 'Forrest Flag' have been on the field with them and, if so, what body of troops would have carried it?

As Flag Guy said, Forrest's men didn't start receiving the Mobile pattern until summer of 1864, so at Thompson's Station, March 1863, they were probably using something else, possibly a First National.

Again, don't think there was such a thing as the "Forrest Flag." It was apparently just the Mobile pattern that has incorrectly become known as "Forrest's Flag," since many of the units that served under his command were issued them, albeit later in the war.

Thanks, Flag Guy, for a lot of good information. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see why the flag had 12 stars. Which state were they omitting? Was it Kentucky, even if the reason did not involve Forrest?

According to Flag Guy's post, because it was possibly based on Gen. PGT Beauregard's prototype design for the Confederate Battle Flag, which had 12 stars (see Here). It was later sent to Mobile and the civilian contractors making the flags there may have based their design off of it.