Biggest Yankee Error

It is tough to teach an old dog new tricks.
Yeah, that applies to historians who cannot give-up hidebound beliefs for which a fitting epitaph might be:
Died age fifty, buried age eighty.​
Even if the repeaters were forthcoming he was not about to accept a new way of doing things
Agreed. That's why Ripley was removed and given a sinecure in September 1863.
 
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I also recall that it was the Ordinance [sic] Branch that studied the arms recovered at Gettysburg and found that of the 28K recovered, more than 22K had more than one round down the barrel. . . Little help!
If you were to examine the cited Robert Bruce source you'd realize you're failing to provide me new information. He mentions it on page 100
Found it:
The numbers we have today state that at least 27,574 rifles were recovered, although some sources claim the number to be as high as 37,000. . . . etc, etc. etc.
Again that's on page 100 of Lincoln and the Tools of War.
There is absolutely no evidence that Lincoln test fired the Spencer until August of 1863 . . .
Except I provided you a source to the contrary. But more importantly, I've show that your own sources document that—contrary to your implication—Ripley was forced to place the December 1861 order for 10,000 Spencers against his will.
. . . there is plenty of evidence that he [Lincoln] did in 1863.
Contrary to your implication, I never suggested that Lincoln did not test fire the Spencer in August 1863. It was, however, the first time that Christopher Spencer was present with Lincoln during a Spencer firing test.
Why would he need to test fire in '63 if he did so in '61?
Because Christoper Spencer requested the demonstration and asked that Secretary of War Stanton and General in Chief Halleck be present, although they did not come.
Ripley had nothing against breechloaders
You keep dodging three points:

1. He was hostile to repeaters. They could not get into volume production unless Ripley placed orders but he dragged his feet on that.​
2. He failed to do what his second successor, Alexander Dyer, finally realized was necessary: To select a single breechloading model and commit to volume purchases.​
3. He failed to urge progress payments and mandatory licensing in order to most rapidly expand industry capacity once a preferred model was selected.​
​
. . . [Ripley] astutely realized that initially, they were an arm for the cavalry . . .
That point is linked in the OP, a source you initially disparaged.
He also knew that his first and most important duty was acquiring as many arms as quickly as possible to equip an ever growing army. Early in the war close to 50% of the arms were imported, he was trying to acquire almost anything that fired a round.
That point is linked in the OP, a source you initially disparaged.
 
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In the latter part of the war Edward M. Stabler of Maryland invented the Stabler Cut-Off Device. It prevented the cartridge from feeding the magazine to the receiver by limiting the lowering of the breech block. The carbine could then be used as a single shot weapon. A few of the carbines manufactured by the Spencer factory, plus 19,000 of the 30,496 of the Burnside Spencers were equipped with the Stabler Cut-Off Device.


Single Shot Position
1865-Spencer-Carbine-Stabler-Switch-Single-Shot-Position.jpg


Repeating Position

1865-Spencer-Carbine-Stabler-Switch-Repeat-Position.jpg
What a terrible invention. What the point of having a repeater and then converting it in to a one shot weapon. I get the fact that there is more air then meat so aimed shots count but to deliberately force ones soldiers to fight with a disadvantage is criminal. Hopefully the boys just threw them away when it was show time.
Leftyhunter
 
My whole US Army career all I ever heard was "3 round burst"
 
"Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics."
Attributed to General of the Armies Omar N. Bradley


Some have asserted that the Federal government, given the industrial power of the north, should have concentrated on the production of breech loading arms, and met the initial need for arms through imports of muzzleloading weapons from Europe. This view is incredibly naïve. It would have required that early in 1861 Federal officials have the prescience to understand that the war was going to be something other than a brief spat. It would have required that ordnance officials understand and admit the clear superiority of breech loading weapons over muzzleloading arms. It would have required that there be agreement on which breech loading arm(s) to manufacture. In order to produce the necessary volume of arms, it would have required that the patent holders of breech loading arms agree to permit other manufacturers to manufacture their arms. It would have required that the Federal government have the will to pay the cost, since breech loading arms were appreciably more expensive than muzzleloading arms. And, it would have required that the north actually have the capacity to rapidly expand its arms and ammunition manufacturing capabilities. That Federal contractors were only able to deliver over the entire course of the war 42 percent of the much simpler Springfield rifle muskets for which they had contracted illustrates the fallacy of the concept, as do other examples:

* The first Smith and Wesson Model Two Army revolvers reached the market in June 1861, which was almost perfect timing for Smith and Wesson. The Model Two was a relatively small six shot revolver which fired a .32 caliber, self-contained, rimfire cartridge. Although it did not approach the power of .36 caliber "Navy" or .44 caliber "Army" revolvers, the Model Two had the distinct advantage of self-contained cartridges. The revolver was such a success that in 1862 Smith and Wesson was forced to close its order books because it had more orders for the pistol than it had the capacity to manufacture in the next three years. (Curtis, "The Smith and Wesson Model Number Two Army," 18)

* Between 1850 and 1860 the U.S. Army had tested a variety of breech loading/repeating weapon designs: Samuel Colt's Model 1855 revolving rifle and carbine, James Durell Greene's breech loading carbine, Benjamin Joslyn's Model 1855 breech loading rifle, Edward Maynard's breech loading carbine, James H. Merrill's breech loading carbine, two breech loading designs from Alonzo Perry, Samuel Porter's breech loading rifle, Herman Schroeder's needle carbine, Gilbert Smith's breech loading carbine, William Mont Storm's breech loading carbine, George W. Morse's breech loading musket, and Lieutenant John C. Symmes' breech loading rifle. Some of the arms leaked gas at the breech, while others were difficult to manufacture given the technology available at the time. And, how would you manufacture any selected arm in quantity if the patent holder and their manufacturing company refused to permit other manufacturers to produce the selected arm? Under the pressure of obtaining arms during the war, the Federal army purchased only the Smith carbine and the Maynard rifle and carbine in significant quantities. (Hull, Lindner Carbines, 1-2)

* When a board of U.S. Army officers tested breech loading rifles at West Point in 1857, it reported that Ambrose E. Burnside's breech loading rifle was the best adapted to military purposes, although the Sharps rifle was also one of those tested. While the Burnside carbine was one of the better cavalry carbines produced during the war, and the Federal government purchased more than 55,000 of them, it was overcome by events technologically. The Burnside Rifle Company finished the war producing 34,496 of the vastly superior Spencer repeating carbines. (Wilcox, Rifles and Rifle Practice, 217; Edwards, Civil War Guns, 114-9)

* Spencer rifle production was also troubled early in the war. On 22 November 1861 the Spencer Repeating Rifle Company proposed to deliver 10,000 Spencer rifles with triangular bayonets to the Ordnance Office for $40 each. Deliveries were to start with 500 rifles in March 1862, with 1,000 rifles to be delivered each month thereafter. With no deliveries having been made in March, April, or May 1862, the Ordnance Office's order was reduced to 7,500 rifles. Even with this reduction in the order, no rifles were delivered until December 1862, and the order was not completed until June 1863. (McAulay, Civil War Breech Loading Rifles, 95-7)

* Although they were transitional arms between muzzle loaders and breech loading self-contained cartridge rifles, the Sharps rifles and carbines, which used a linen or paper cased cartridge and a separate percussion cap for ignition, were clearly one of the major armament success stories of the war. In February 1862 Colonel Hiram Berdan, commander of the 1st and 2nd U.S. Sharpshooter regiments, persuaded the War Department to purchase 2,000 modified Model 1859 Sharps infantry rifles to arm his regiments. At the time, the Sharps Rifle Manufacturing Company was manufacturing Sharps cavalry carbines for the War Department, with a capacity of 500 carbines per week. To fill the order for Berdan's regiments, the company had to shut down carbine production and set up its machinery to manufacture rifles. This proved more difficult than expected, and it took Sharps from 21 February until 31 May 1862 to fill the rifle order for the Sharpshooters and readjust its equipment to go back into carbine production. In the process, the Federal army lost the production of more than 6,000 badly needed cavalry carbines. The Sharpshooters did not receive their first issue of Sharps rifles, which were issued without ammunition, until 7 May 1862, by which time they had left their camp of instruction in Washington and were in contact with the enemy at Yorktown, Virginia. Thus, the Sharpshooters lost their opportunity to train effectively with their Sharps rifles before they went to the field. This pattern of rearming units while they were literally on the march or in contact with the enemy is seen with a number of other Federal and Confederate units during the war. Given the Confederate casualties inflicted by the Sharpshooters, one might argue that the impact of issuing them their Sharps rifles was well worth the loss of the 6,000 carbines. (Davis, Arming the Union, 83-4; Earley, 2nd U.S. Sharpshooters, 47 and 50)

* On 18 June 1861 Oliver Winchester wrote to Secretary Cameron that his factory would be producing 200 Henry repeating rifles per month by September 1861, and that, if necessary, the New Haven Arms Company could double that number. In fact, Winchester did not begin significant production of Henry rifles until 1862, and only produced 1,500 rifles during that year. The first Ordnance Office order for Henry rifles did not come until 16 June 1863, when it ordered 240 Henry rifles at $36 per weapon. (McAulay, Civil War Breech Loading Rifles, 42)

* Federal contractors agreed to produce Springfield rifle muskets for $18 to $20 each. It cost the Federal Army an average of $11.70 to produce a Model 1855-64 rifle musket at Springfield Armory. In contrast, the army paid Sharps $42.50 each for the Sharpshooters' rifles in April 1862, and paid $40.00 each for the initial order of Spencer rifles in December 1862. At the time, there were no clear indications that the breech loaders were worth the extra cost, that the average soldier had the skills to effectively use or maintain them, or that the Federal logistical system could adequately supply them with ammunition in the field given their rates of fire. The British Army made a similar decision in 1857 when it tested the Whitworth rifle again the Pattern 1853 Enfield rifle musket. The Whitworth significantly outperformed the Enfield in range and accuracy, but fouled readily and was four times more expensive. (EXDOC 99, 946, 963; Barry and Burt, Suppliers to the Confederacy, II, 273)

By World War II, the U.S. Army had resolved the problem of how to handle a company's proprietary designs: effective seizure. In 1940 the American Bantum Car Company had proposed to build a ¼ ton truck with four-wheel drive and excellent cross country mobility for the Army. Bantum, Willys Overland, and Ford then entered prototypes into a design competition. Although the Bantum design was superior, the Army was concerned about the company's ability to build the resulting GP truck ["Jeep"] in quantity. After a small order to Bantum, the Army gave Bantum's designs and the first major manufacturing contract to Willys. When Willy's could not keep up with the demands of production, a second contract was issued to Ford. Bantum finished the war manufacturing trailers for Jeeps, and by 1956 it was out of business. Given the legal concept of property rights existing in 1861, whose breech loading firearm design would the Federal Army have seized to manufacture, would the courts have supported such a seizure of property rights, where would the facilities and machine tools necessary to manufacture it have come from, and how could the required quantities of ammunition have been manufactured?

Regards,
Don Dixon
Also @Harvey Johnson ,
@Saphroneth has pointed out in previous threads that at least up to 1863 Springfield Armory had to import rifle barrels from England because it simply couldn't keep up with the demand for quality rifle barrels. The Union had to import tens of thousands of MLs from Western Europe due to the inadequacy of American arms manufacturers to produce arms for the Union Army.
As others pointed out there simply wasn't time to build quality breechloaders quickly and in sufficient numbers.
Leftyhunter
 
The CW is not the only one. When I was attending the US Army college we had 2 days of the wars that experienced these same problems. ALL of them and I saw it first hand in the sand box.
 
Yet these two gentlemen did what to procure such weapons for the Confederacy?
In Floyd's defense there simply was no foreign arms manufacturers that manufactured reliable repeating or breech loading rifles or least willing to sell them to the Confederacy. The Confederacy could produce quality copies of the Springfield 1861 rifle but not in sufficient quantities.
Leftyhunter
 
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Contrary to popular belief a nation cannot just flip a switch and upgrade all their arms overnight. That just isn't the way reality works. Board & Video games maybe but those aren't history.

Scholars study how long it takes to get the machinery manufactured, delivered and installed as well as how long it takes operators of said machinery to become proficient in their use. A breech loading rifle or repeater takes considerably more time to manufacture and cost 2-3 times as much as a muzzle loader. When arming 1000 men are 1000 rifle muskets more effective than say 250... What is better 250 armed men or 1000? Quantity has a quality all of its own.

It was standard for the Cav of both sides to have a soldier armed w/ sabre, pistol & carbine as the ideal. The reality was that one company would receive sabres, another pistols and a third carbines. Three companies ready to go to work vs one. Reality vs the rules and regulations.

The biggest problem for ALL breach loading arms of the day was gas leakage. It's not quite as much fun to shoot with a jet of hot gas burning your forearm. Hence why there was so much resistance to breach loading arms. As often as the Dreyse is mentioned it should be remembered that several nations tested it and rejected it because it had accuracy issues and leaked gas badly. This was resolved in later versions but it had not been resolved by 1860. The Sharps was viewed as the premier breach loader of the day... set a handkerchief on top of the action of an M1859 that has been heavily used and the cloth will light. I've done it. The first to not have an issue with such was the Burnside and Smith... and they were new in 1860.

Another issue rarely thought of by the armchair scholar is the reality of interchangeability, it was called the American System for a reason. Only the Americans had really perfected it by 1860 and even we were a far cry from perfect at it. All US military arms were supposed to be interchangeable w/ the same pattern arm... while we did good we were far from perfect at it. But we were still far ahead of anyone else in the world.

So when it comes to armchair general/industrialists condemn the US for failing to adopt a breach loader in 1860 (we actually did in 1819) as some horrendous mistake. What the US managed to do despite failing to adopt the most up to date, unproven arms, was put a weapon in the hands of every soldier who went off to war. No US soldier went off to fight the CS carying a broom stick or worse yet unarmed when it came tome to exchange fire with an enemy across the field.

Both the US & CS made herculean efforts to arm and equip their soldiers. Contrary to the belief of some both armies were rather well equipped. In fact I would consider them among the best armed in the word by mid 1863.

The US started the war with just 16,000 Regulars... in less than four years there were more than a million arms in the hands of the men who needed them.
 
Contrary to popular belief a nation cannot just flip a switch and upgrade all their arms overnight

Amen Brother Amen. The CW was a lot different as the weapons and ammo did not have to be shipped to another country. It was a 32 day sail from Savannah to Riyadh.
 
Since nobody in this thread has suggested johan's alleged "popular belief" his straw man its readily dismissed.
Did I offend you by noting the difference between fantasy and reality?

There is reality & actual history and there is fantasy. No matter how much some rail against it fantasy is not reality. What if, might have, could have, should have will always be trumped by what was.
 
Since nobody in this thread has suggested johan's alleged "popular belief" his straw man is readily dismissed.
I'll suggest it, to add manufacturing capability, of a completely new product, while in the middle of product runs, is difficult in today's environment, let alone 155 years ago. Machinery had to be built and individuals trained to build and operate it, who would build such machinery, when virtually all US manufacturing capacity was at 100%?

I started my civilian career as a factory engineer/industrial engineer and know the lead time required for die & tool making, not to mention machinery that needs to be manufactured, implemented and trained to use for other purposes. This in the 20th century not the 19th where this capability was lacking.

You base your assertions on a chapter, in a book, whose author, took his information largely from Bruce, whose tome reads like a novel with zero attributable footnotes, just source material/end notes; one has to guess where it might apply. He constantly adds verbiage and dialog to historic figures without attribution...…...

Case in point, if repeaters were so easy to build, why did it take until virtually Johnson and Garrand to perfect them for the US military just prior to WW2?

You mention, erroneously, the aviation industry during WW1, please study and research what really happened there, but I digress; where was the Spencer or other repeater for the doughboys? Krag and '03 Springfield.

The US military was adverse to repeaters due to the same reservations that Ripley had, when they went to breechloaders, they converted extant arms, for the purpose: Allin 1865 & 1866 approx. 30,000. The success of these arms brokered the transition to the 1868 Springfield aka "Trapdoor". The arsenals had the supply and time to convert these weapons now that the war was over.


Another aspect not relayed in any of this was the weight of such ammunition for the infantry, many of the units utilizing the Spencer rifles were mounted infantry, but foot infantry would have to lug additional ammunition due to the higher rate of fire. There is a report of cavalrymen adverse to the Blakeslee box due the weight of almost 10 pounds fully loaded with tubes for the carbine.
 
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One must also consider how manufacturing was conducted in the mid 1800s, many of these concerns had to utilize water power to provide the means of operating the machinery. Adding new machinery was expensive and very difficult as a result, in addition you could not just pop up a plant anywhere, it required strategic placement near moving water.

Steam was in limited use at even the largest facilities (Hill shops at Springfield)
 
More could have been done with magazine rifles. However, the problem was addressed by trying to concentrate the best carbines and magazine rifles in the hands of skirmishers, veteran brigades, and mounted infantry and cavalry.
Given that the production problems were difficult to solve, this partial solution was probably the best course of action.
 
I believe that using Ripley's own words might help clarify the issue facing the Ordnance Department in 1861:

"Although there are many persons urgent and clamorous for contracts, and ready to promise the delivery of any kind of arms, of any pattern, and in short time, I know of none, and I do not believe there are any, who have the requisite machinery, tools, and fixtures for making such arms, and but few who can prepare them in less than one year's time. Even Mr. Colt, who has the most complete private armory in the United States or probably elsewhere, and greater means and facilities for commencing the fabrication of the Government pattern arms than anyone else, states that it will require six months for him to make the first delivery. All who seek these contracts want orders for large quantities of arms, which I consider it certain they will not be able to deliver under many years time, not probably until the present demand for those is over."

The Colt plant had over 1,400 machines and Colt did not deliver in the 6 month period predicted by Ripley, it took him almost a year to tool up and produce the '61 Springfield type musket.

The Amoskeag Gun factory took 14 months to tool up and make the same arm; there were over 500 different operations just to make the '61 Springfield. General James Wolf Ripley Chief of Ordnance, Tate; pages 17-18
 
I believe that using Ripley's own words might help clarify the issue facing the Ordnance Department in 1861:

"Although there are many persons urgent and clamorous for contracts, and ready to promise the delivery of any kind of arms, of any pattern, and in short time, I know of none, and I do not believe there are any, who have the requisite machinery, tools, and fixtures for making such arms, and but few who can prepare them in less than one year's time. Even Mr. Colt, who has the most complete private armory in the United States or probably elsewhere, and greater means and facilities for commencing the fabrication of the Government pattern arms than anyone else, states that it will require six months for him to make the first delivery. All who seek these contracts want orders for large quantities of arms, which I consider it certain they will not be able to deliver under many years time, not probably until the present demand for those is over."

The Colt plant had over 1,400 machines and Colt did not deliver in the 6 month period predicted by Ripley, it took him almost a year to tool up and produce the '61 Springfield type musket.

The Amoskeag Gun factory took 14 months to tool up and make the same arm; there were over 500 different operations just to make the '61 Springfield. General James Wolf Ripley Chief of Ordnance, Tate; pages 17-18

You missed this James Ripley quote:

A great evil now specially prevalent in regard to arms for military service is the vast variety of new inventions. . . . This evil can only be stopped by positively refusing to answer any requisitions for or proportions to sell new and untried arms. . .
​
 
Really. When somebody responds to what they pretend that I wrote instead of what I actually wrote, they only destroy their own credibility.
Really *Edited*? From you? FWIW we've had this discussion before. You are the one making the charge that the US should have been able to completely arm the US Army w/ breechloaders in less than a year while fighting a war. You are not alone in such. As has been said before: amateurs study battles & professionals study logistics. Others have also said that wars are won by the least incompetent army. Even with all the incompetence in the US Army the US still managed to win the Civil War; largely without repeaters...
 
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