The Non-Celtic Confederacy

[Pat Young]

I think we neeed some balance here while having fun with a few Southern whites believing themselves a part of a Celtic master race. It's baloney and never has been anyway close to mainstream thinking in this region. But to be fair let's turn the tables and ask where and when did the term WASP originate? It wasn't down South for sure. And where did the influential 19th century preacher Josiah Strong who spoke about Anglo-Saxon predominance the US and the world come from? Well he was born, raised and educated in the Midwest. You should read some of his stuff. And what about the Brahmins of old Boston? You get the feeling that Irish Catholics are still upset about that bunch. So please don't pin the group superiority label exclusively on Southerners because every ethnicity represented here has played the same game to a certain degree at one time or another.

Right you are.

My point was not that Southerners were any more like to have a Saxon Superiority complex than New Englanders. It is merely that much of the 19th and early 20th Century literature I encounter has folks claiming to be Saxon, not Celtic.

 

[MattL]

It would depend on region and whether you considered Scot-Irish (Lowland Scots and Border English) Celts or Anglo-Saxon. True Celts (Highland Scots, Welsh and Irish) were probably not the predominant European ethnicity in the South as a whole.

This is exactly the point I was about to make.

I've always found the Celtic emphasis highly exaggerated (considering the majority of my ancestry leads back to those same Scots-Irish groups).

As you point out I also find it dubious to consider the Scots-Irish highly "Celtic". To clarify we would be referring to the insular Celts vs Anglo-Saxon. Being on those border region they were not only culturally infused with English culture and more removed from Insular Celtic culture, additionally they would be genetically far more diverse and mixed than what we would classify as "Celt" (Insular Celt).

On way to look at this is DNA, here are Y DNA haplogroups of modern tested individuals. Though this doesn't represent the area 300-400 years ago it does give us an idea of the population groups and still gives us a nice parallel to the known history.

A few genetic maps.

A good overview
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml#maps

Some more in-depth ones for the groups

R1b - L21
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

R1b - S21/U106
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S21-U106

R1b - S28/U152
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

I1
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml#distribution


The summary the DNA shows matches the history. R1b L21 is called the "Atlantic Celtic" Haplogroup. It originated about 4400 years ago and likely arrived in Britain around 2100 BC or so.

This makes it the most common haplogroup of all the British Celtic societies, mostly surviving in hotspots these days in the Insular Celtic groups, though we should note that some Y DNA lines survive from the other British Celtic groups that happened to persist despite other populations that came.

Lowland Scotland is made up of a good portion of this, though again remember a portion of that is not just the modern Scottish Celtic culture but that which did infuse and adapt into English culture as well (though to a lesser extent). Also L21 represents some Continental Celtic groups too, not just the British Isles.

R1b - S21/U106 (Germanic branch) and I1 represents both Anglo-Saxon and Viking movement into Britain, most of it likely from Anglo-Saxons. You can see the map really maps the historical record in this case.

R1b - S28/U152 (Italo-Celtic branch) shows a later Celtic migration (a cousin branch to L21 though not the same) to Britain. It hotspots in Northern Italy so follows well the movements of La Tene and Halstat Continental Celtic groups. This happens to be my Y DNA group that likely went to England. They came later and made the smallest impact. Also this group likely came in additional waves with the Romans (Italy being a good portion U152 so the Romans likely were too) and of course the Normans or other migrations from France/Belgium over to Britain.

With all this considered you can see that not only was lowland scotland a cultural hodgepodge between the Celts and the Anglo-Saxons (which still contained trace elements of Celtic Britain both in culture and DNA) but DNA wise they were too.

All of this makes me suspect the Scots-Irish weren't ultra Celtic like people think of these days... More Anglo-Saxon/Celtic that the lowland Scotland and border English region would suggest.

 

[MattL]

This is exactly the point I was about to make.

I've always found the Celtic emphasis highly exaggerated (considering the majority of my ancestry leads back to those same Scots-Irish groups).

As you point out I also find it dubious to consider the Scots-Irish highly "Celtic". To clarify we would be referring to the insular Celts vs Anglo-Saxon. Being on those border region they were not only culturally infused with English culture and more removed from Insular Celtic culture, additionally they would be genetically far more diverse and mixed than what we would classify as "Celt" (Insular Celt).

On way to look at this is DNA, here are Y DNA haplogroups of modern tested individuals. Though this doesn't represent the area 300-400 years ago it does give us an idea of the population groups and still gives us a nice parallel to the known history.

A few genetic maps.

A good overview
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml#maps

Some more in-depth ones for the groups

R1b - L21
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

R1b - S21/U106
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S21-U106

R1b - S28/U152
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

I1
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml#distribution


The summary the DNA shows matches the history. R1b L21 is called the "Atlantic Celtic" Haplogroup. It originated about 4400 years ago and likely arrived in Britain around 2100 BC or so.

This makes it the most common haplogroup of all the British Celtic societies, mostly surviving in hotspots these days in the Insular Celtic groups, though we should note that some Y DNA lines survive from the other British Celtic groups that happened to persist despite other populations that came.

Lowland Scotland is made up of a good portion of this, though again remember a portion of that is not just the modern Scottish Celtic culture but that which did infuse and adapt into English culture as well (though to a lesser extent). Also L21 represents some Continental Celtic groups too, not just the British Isles.

R1b - S21/U106 and I1 represents both Anglo-Saxon and Viking movement into Britain, most of it likely from Anglo-Saxons. You can see the map really maps the historical record in this case.

R1b - S28/U152 shows a later Celtic migration (a cousin branch to L21 though not the same) to Britain. It hotspots in Northern Italy so follows well the movements of La Tene and Halstat Continental Celtic groups. This happens to be my Y DNA group that likely went to England. They came later and made the smallest impact. Also this group likely came in additional waves with the Romans (Italy being a good portion U152 so the Romans likely were too) and of course the Normans or other migrations from France/Belgium over to Britain.

With all this considered you can see that not only was lowland scotland a cultural hodgepodge between the Celts and the Anglo-Saxons (which still contained trace elements of Celtic Britain both in culture and DNA) but DNA wise they were too.

All of this makes me suspect the Scots-Irish weren't ultra Celtic like people think of these days... More Anglo-Saxon/Celtic that the lowland Scotland and border English region would suggest.

I'll also add that this is where one could argue the term Celt/Celtic gets confusing. The more specific term was first used for Continental Celtic culture (used by the Romans), though has been applied to a sort of proto-Celtic culture shared among that group and early settlers in the British Isles, one we can see shares DNA ties as well.

Most people say it today to mean Scottish/Irish/Welsh though. Much of the alleged Anglo-Saxon English culture still held remnants and traces of Celtic culture and DNA that was a wider Celtic culture beyond what we think of today. The old Celtic DNA didn't get fully supplanted by Anglo-Saxon, Roman, Viking, and Norman DNA. Though again it's easier when referring to these specific ideas of Celtic vs. Anglo-Saxon referred to of this time as just Scottish/Irish/Welsh vs English.

 

[John Hartwell]

boy oh boy there you go again pat with all those facts when our you going to realize facts have nothing to do with the truth. But thank you you know I enjoyed reading all your stuff keep it up.

Facts can challenge one's perception of truth -- but, the truthiness of the Civil War's Anglo/Celtic rivalry is unassailable.

 

[Irishtom29]

Where were Celtic languages spoken during the early European settlement of what's now the southern United States? I know the native Irish and Highland Scots spoke a Celtic tongue, I think the Lowland Scots spoke a Germanic tongue. I think there were still Celtic speakers in Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Mann. And the Bretons. Perhaps some people in northern Spain?

I think most people in the United States who can trace back to recently Celtic speaking ancestors are Irish Catholics. My Grandfather spoke Irish day to day in the Old Country but not in Chicago. ;-)

 

[Tennessee_Mountainman]

All I got to say to all those Anglo-Saxon supremacists:

Faugh a Ballagh

Expired Image Removed
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Nuff said!

 

[Irishtom29]

"Faugh a Ballagh" is Irish for "get out of the way" and was supposedly hollered by the 87th Foot (later 1st. Batt. Royal Irish Fusiliers) as they attacked the French at Barrosa during the Peninsular War. The 87th there captured a French regimental eagle, the first captured by the British army. This led to the 87th, and later the RIF, to be known as the Eagle Catchers and also as the Fogs.

 

[leftyhunter]

Would it not be fair to say with all the rambunctious between the Irish,Scotish and British boys and girls for practical purposes theirs not much genetic difference between them?Thank God for religious differences so from time to time they have something to fight over.
Leftyhunter

 

[Tennessee_Mountainman]

"Faugh a Ballagh" is Irish for "get out of the way" and was supposedly hollered by the 87th Foot (later 1st. Batt. Royal Irish Fusiliers) as they attacked the French at Barrosa during the Peninsular War. The 87th there captured a French regimental eagle, the first captured by the British army. This led to the 87th, and later the RIF, to be known as the Eagle Catchers and also as the Fogs.

Yeah, it was also the motto of the Union Irish Brigade in the Army of the Potomac. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the exact term in English was "clear the way."

 

[CSA Today]

Where were Celtic languages spoken during the early European settlement of what's now the southern United States? I know the native Irish and Highland Scots spoke a Celtic tongue, I think the Lowland Scots spoke a Germanic tongue. I think there were still Celtic speakers in Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Mann. And the Bretons. Perhaps some people in northern Spain?

I think most people in the United States who can trace back to recently Celtic speaking ancestors are Irish Catholics. My Grandfather spoke Irish day to day in the Old Country but not in Chicago. ;-)

In much of southeastern North Carolina Gàidhlig (Scottish Gaelic) was the common language of church and home as late as 1850. I'm told there was a Gaelic service as late as the early 1930s in a local church for elderly citizens who could understand the language. I read in a local newspaper years ago that the last known first language speakers were a community of elderly former slaves in a neighboring county during the 1880s.

 

[Pat Young]

I read in a local newspaper years ago that the last known first language speakers were a community of elderly former slaves in a neighboring county during the 1880s.

I am not sure what you mean by "the last known first language speakers."

 

[GS]

Believe me, I never forget the Welsh.
My problem was I could not find data on Welsh nativity by state.

My understanding regarding the Welsh immigrants, which came when researching my Williams family from Wales roots, I discovered that the major seaports of New York and Charleston would not allow "riffraff", such as immigrants from Wales, Ireland and Scotland, much less those of Asian, middle east or African descent, unless indentured servants or slaves, up until mid to late 1700's, when a Welshman came into power in Charleston. The elite British of New England would shun the likes of Celtic or Cymric "barbarians", and they naturally migrated south or west. I'm told that even today, there's an attitude in New England, incomers checked for background and breeding, before socially accepted. Is this true today?

 

[CSA Today]

I am not sure what you mean by "the last known first language speakers."

Speakers of Gaelic as their usual language.

 

[CSA Today]

My understanding regarding the Welsh immigrants, which came when researching my Williams family from Wales roots, I discovered that the major seaports of New York and Charleston would not allow "riffraff", such as immigrants from Wales, Ireland and Scotland, much less those of Asian, middle east or African descent, unless indentured servants or slaves, up until mid to late 1700's, when a Welshman came into power in Charleston. The elite British of New England would shun the likes of Celtic or Cymric "barbarians", and they naturally migrated south or west. I'm told that even today, there's an attitude in New England, incomers checked for background and breeding, before socially accepted. Is this true today?

There was a large settlement of Welsh just south of here (Scotland County, NC) in South Carolina. Many of them had migrated in my area by the by the 1800s. They were the second largest group (after Scottish Highlanders) of European origin here by the time of the war.
http://www.carolana.com/SC/Royal_Colony/sc_royal_colony_welsh.html

 

[Irishtom29]

Speakers of Gaelic as their usual language.

In the 1930s and 40s a Black guy who spoke Irish worked on Maxwell Street in Chicago.

No, it wasn't Phil Lynott.

 

[Irishtom29]

Double post

 

[John Hartwell]

There was a sizable Scots immigration into New England. As early as 1653, there was a Scots Charitable Society in Boston. After 1700, there was a concerted effort to attract Scots and Scotch-Irish immigrants, and a number of communities in Mass., N.H., Vt., and Maine were founded by them. The famous Maj. Robert Rogers (portrayed in Turn as a Scot with a brogue), was actually born in Methuen, Mass. in 1731, the son of an agent for Scotch-Irish immigration organizers. Methuen was a staging-point for Scots settlers bound to the New Hampshire frontier. They weren't always welcomed with open arms at first, but they came, and stayed, and were a recognized and integral part of the New England community well before the Revolution.
[http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/new_england.htm
also Dobson, Scots in New England, 1623-1873.]

 

[Pat Young]

Speakers of Gaelic as their usual language.

Thanks

 

[Waterloo50]

Would it not be fair to say with all the rambunctious between the Irish,Scotish and British boys and girls for practical purposes theirs not much genetic difference between them?Thank God for religious differences so from time to time they have something to fight over.
Leftyhunter

Absolutely spot on, I can't recall anytime in British History excluding 'ancient history' where the Brits have fought over anything other than religion, Protestant v Catholic mostly and that was only because of the Monarchy. The far right in Britain still have a tendency to claim that they are Anglo Saxon, for some reason they can't seem to grasp the idea that Britain was a melting pot of people from all over Europe, people came and people left, its always been that way. Anglo Saxon or Celtic, it makes me chuckle really, they are all one and the same.

 

[Pat Young]

Absolutely spot on, I can't recall anytime in British History excluding 'ancient history' where the Brits have fought over anything other than religion, Protestant v Catholic mostly and that was only because of the Monarchy. The far right in Britain still have a tendency to claim that they are Anglo Saxon, for some reason they can't seem to grasp the idea that Britain was a melting pot of people from all over Europe, people came and people left, its always been that way. Anglo Saxon or Celtic, it makes me chuckle really, they are all one and the same.

I work with a mostly Latino co-workers and I am routinely called "Anglo." I laugh because it would have scandalized my grandparents.