How would you rate Rosecrans?

[DanSBHawk]

Send a link of it to me so I can read and perhaps comment on it.

Here is the telegram from Rosecrans to Lincoln asking for his rank to pre-date Grants as a "personal favor."

Lincoln knew exactly what Rosecrans was up to. Here is part of the reply back to Rosecrans from Lincoln.

"Now, as to your request that your Commission should date from December 1861. Of course you expected to gain something by this; but you should remember that precisely so much as you should gain by it others would lose by it. If the thing you sought had been exclusively ours, we would have given it cheerfully; but being the right of other men, we having a merely arbitrary power over it, the taking it from them and giving it to you, became a more delicate matter, and more deserving of consideration. Truth to speak, I do not appreciate this matter of rank on paper, as you officers do. The world will not forget that you fought the battle of ``Stone River'' and it will never care a fig whether you rank Gen. Grant on paper, or he so, ranks you."

 

[nitrofd]

Here is the telegram from Rosecrans to Lincoln asking for his rank to pre-date Grants as a "personal favor."
View attachment 86822
View attachment 86823
Lincoln knew exactly what Rosecrans was up to. Here is part of the reply back to Rosecrans from Lincoln.

"Now, as to your request that your Commission should date from December 1861. Of course you expected to gain something by this; but you should remember that precisely so much as you should gain by it others would lose by it. If the thing you sought had been exclusively ours, we would have given it cheerfully; but being the right of other men, we having a merely arbitrary power over it, the taking it from them and giving it to you, became a more delicate matter, and more deserving of consideration. Truth to speak, I do not appreciate this matter of rank on paper, as you officers do. The world will not forget that you fought the battle of ``Stone River'' and it will never care a fig whether you rank Gen. Grant on paper, or he so, ranks you."

This just shows how smart old Abe really was.

 

[Horace Porter]

You have know thoughts about it? Or does your silence speak volumes?

Ask him. What's your problem? Afraid to contact the historians you attack here? So much for being courageous.

 

[DanSBHawk]

This just shows how smart old Abe really was.

I agree. Here is how Lincoln ended the letter:

"And now be assured, you wrong both yourself and us, when you even suspect there is not the best disposition on the part of us all here to oblige you. Yours very truly A. LINCOLN"

Lincoln recognized Rosecrans tendency to believe there was a conspiracy against him, and tried to persuade him to chill out.

 

[Horace Porter]

Send a link of it to me so I can read and perhaps comment on it.

Without documentation? In your decades of research, I would've thought you'd seen the letter Rosecrans sent to Lincoln asking for a "personal favor."

Wow. If Moore hasn't seen that letter, that's a stunning indictment of his research skills. If he's playing dumb, that's a stunning indictment because it shows the contempt he has for people here.

 

[18thVirginia]

I know this is straying from the topic of the thread, but I am going to disagree with you. Butler had been an officer in the Mass. Militia for over a decade including several years as Brigadier General; at the time Lincoln selected him to be a general in the US forces, Butler was already commanding forces in Maryland. There was a perception that he had military ability and background to suit the appointment.

Thanks for bringing this up, Ned. I've read a couple of biographies of Butler and knew there was some reason percolating around in my brain about how he became a general, but couldn't quite remember. I thought my labeling of him had to be more than that one of my grgrgrgreats was a politician appointed to be a brigadier general in the militia in Arkansas. So I dug out my copy of Lincoln's Scapegoat General, and Richard West states that Butler was discharged from his militia, his band of Irish immigrants where he was a colonel. Butler campaigned for a new position and became Brigadier General of another Massachusetts brigade, (p. 41-42).

Butler certainly seemed well-suited to deal with Louisiana officialdom.

 

[67th Tigers]

Fighting isn't doing nothing. You apparently are unable to accurately characterize his actions.

Fantastic. However, you're moving the initiatives of Lee into the Grant column.

How many casualties were taken from August '64 to February '65 inclusive? The Federals received 26,668 casualties and the Rebels 15,000 in these seven months. To put it another way, those seven months were less damaging than any of Gettysburg, Seven Days, Maryland campaign, or the Chancellorsville campaign. This is essentially the least active period since the first winter.

 

[War Horse]

Well it's been awhile since I've been here. All I can say is the poll is resulting in a landslide.

 

[cash]

Fantastic. However, you're moving the initiatives of Lee into the Grant column.

How many casualties were taken from August '64 to February '65 inclusive? The Federals received 26,668 casualties and the Rebels 15,000 in these seven months. To put it another way, those seven months were less damaging than any of Gettysburg, Seven Days, Maryland campaign, or the Chancellorsville campaign. This is essentially the least active period since the first winter.

You claimed Grant was inactive. He wasn't.

Is it your opinion that your idol, McClellan, was inactive from June 25, 1862 until September 14, 1862? Since McClellan wasn't attacking Lee he must have been "boldly doing nothing," right? According to your standard for Grant, McClellan was doing nothing but sitting on his butt during that time.

You should stick to actually defending McClellan from real unfair attacks instead of trying to elevate him by attacking a better general. It's more honest.

 

[David Moore]

Yes Mr Porter seems to have a low opinion of either Rosecrans or your work. That however has nothing to do with me. To answer one theoretical, yes he would be a martyr and a hero if KIA. It is not a certainty that this would occur, nor that Bragg would recapture Chattanooga. If he was killed yes it would have been better for the Union as his remaining service was unremarkable. On the contrary he might have stemmed the tide and prevented Bragg from besieging Chattanooga. Lastly the differing accounts are of no interest to me and I decline to research. Their excuses are just hot air. Research will only confirm that he was not on the field when needed. This is the man who merits a statue? I value action over words, courage under fire over self-preservation. Rosecrans was expendable.[/QUOTE
I could say many things but I will just say two.
First: Your statement "Differing accounts are of no interest to me and I decline to research" reveals everything about your opinions of Rosecrans . The only things you know about him are what you've read in histories of the war which don't discuss Rosecrans in much detail. If you have no interest in researching deeper your opinion will never change. I'm willing to continue to discuss him with you but we need to acknowledge that we are drawing from from different sources of information.
Second: Your animus against commemorating Rosecrans
is perplexing to me. It appears supporting Grant means ignoring anyone who was not one of his "satellites" (a term used by Gordon Granger.) Present day Confederate "rooters" I think would be willing to commemorate anyone who honorably supported the Confederacy. For Grant supporters it seems to be that supporting Grant is their paramount interest and objective. Other personages are "expendable." That is an interesting word. Were the men and boys who were casualties in 1864-5 in Virgina and moved Emory Upton and EOC Ord to use words like murderous expendable?

Here is the telegram from Rosecrans to Lincoln asking for his rank to pre-date Grants as a "personal favor."
View attachment 86822
View attachment 86823 You won't even call me Mr. Moore? I call you Mr Porter.
Lincoln knew exactly what Rosecrans was up to. Here is part of the reply back to Rosecrans from Lincoln.

"Now, as to your request that your Commission should date from December 1861. Of course you expected to gain something by this; but you should remember that precisely so much as you should gain by it others would lose by it. If the thing you sought had been exclusively ours, we would have given it cheerfully; but being the right of other men, we having a merely arbitrary power over it, the taking it from them and giving it to you, became a more delicate matter, and more deserving of consideration. Truth to speak, I do not appreciate this matter of rank on paper, as you officers do. The world will not forget that you fought the battle of ``Stone River'' and it will never care a fig whether you rank Gen. Grant on paper, or he so, ranks you."

You only see in this Rosecrans asking that his rank predate Grant's. There are other requests as well. Why would Rosecrans ask that he outrank Grant? Perhaps his experiences serving under Grant and fighting two battles under him in Mississippi in 1862 had something to do with it. Who wants to fight under a commander who doesn't show up for the battles? Also note Rosecrans wants to replace an aide who went on a bender. That telegram was about more than antedating his commission.

Wow. If Moore hasn't seen that letter, that's a stunning indictment of his research skills. If he's playing dumb, that's a stunning indictment because it shows the contempt he has for people here.

 

[David Moore]

Ask him. What's your problem? Afraid to contact the historians you attack here? So much for being courageous.

Mr. Thomas died in 1956. Mr. Hyman is 91 years old. I don't know which of the two is responsible for the incomplete quote.
That quote also appears in edited form in Margaret Leech (d 1974) and Harry James Brown's The Garfield orbit. p 136.
Do you find it interesting that the complete quote was not cited? Do you give me credit for including the whole quote?

 

[David Moore]

You only see in this Rosecrans asking that his rank predate Grant's. There are other requests as well. Why would Rosecrans ask that he outrank Grant? Perhaps his experiences serving under Grant and fighting two battles under him in Mississippi in 1862 had something to do with it. Who wants to fight under a commander who doesn't show up for the battles? Also note Rosecrans wants to replace an aide who went on a bender. That telegram was about more than antedating his commission.

This is what I would have highlighted in Lincoln's telegram: "The world will not forget that you fought the battle of ``Stone River'' Of course the world has forgotten.

 

[NedBaldwin]

How many casualties were taken from August '64 to February '65 inclusive? The Federals received 26,668 casualties and the Rebels 15,000 in these seven months. To put it another way, those seven months were less damaging than any of Gettysburg, Seven Days, Maryland campaign, or the Chancellorsville campaign. This is essentially the least active period since the first winter.

Some might say that less damaging is a good thing since there is much criticism of the 3 months prior when there was lots of damaging.
As for it being the least active period, I think there was less damage August 1863 - April 1864

 

[Horace Porter]

Mr. Thomas died in 1956. Mr. Hyman is 91 years old. I don't know which of the two is responsible for the incomplete quote.
That quote also appears in edited form in Margaret Leech (d 1974) and Harry James Brown's The Garfield orbit. p 136.
Do you find it interesting that the complete quote was not cited? Do you give me credit for including the whole quote?

So you want me to speak about the motives of a dead historian and an aged one? Wow.

And if I did, you would then attack me, of course.

As you seem to have forgotten to cite complete quotes in other instances, perhaps you can tell us why historians like you do that. I'd find that interesting. I'd also find it interesting to see why you have passed over the portions of the quote that suggest that people viewed Rosecrans as a coward and a political operator.

 

[Horace Porter]

You only see in this Rosecrans asking that his rank predate Grant's. There are other requests as well. Why would Rosecrans ask that he outrank Grant? Perhaps his experiences serving under Grant and fighting two battles under him in Mississippi in 1862 had something to do with it. Who wants to fight under a commander who doesn't show up for the battles? Also note Rosecrans wants to replace an aide who went on a bender. That telegram was about more than antedating his commission.

And yet Rosecrans had been pressing for the backdating of his rank for some time, at the expense of many fellow officers, not just Grant.

What's interesting is that Rosecrans denounced Halleck's clumsy effort to offer promotion to a general who would bring victory on the battlefield, saying that such an officer "would come by his commission basely in that case and deserve to be despised" (Castel w/Simpson, 207), but he had no problem with these backroom maneuvers.

We can guess what you would be saying if Grant had written such a letter.

You asked to see the letter to Lincoln in question about backdating his date of commission. Tell us: were you unaware of the letter, or did you know about it but chose to play dumb to try to trick another reader?

 

[NedBaldwin]

You only see in this Rosecrans asking that his rank predate Grant's. There are other requests as well.

Obviously there are other requests, but the one about rank is the interesting.

Why would Rosecrans ask that he outrank Grant?

Ego; ambition.

Perhaps his experiences serving under Grant and fighting two battles under him in Mississippi in 1862 had something to do with it. Who wants to fight under a commander who doesn't show up for the battles?

Grant wasnt expected to show up at either. Did Rosecrans need the supervision?



Regarding Rosecrans request that his rank be back dated to 1861, Halleck had written him in march 1863 :
"last summer, at your request, I urged the government to promote you for success in the field, and, again at your request, urged that your commission be dated back to your services in West Virginia". [Official Records, Series 1 - Volume 23 (Part II), page 138] Halleck was apparently lobbying to get Rosecrans promoted long before Iuka and Corinth.

In September 1862, when Rosecrans learned he had at last been promoted to Major General, instead of appreciation, he complained about it to Halleck:
"If fighting successful battles having important results; if successfully defending a mountainous country against an active and powerful foe; if pacifying and restoring law and order to a vast region with 300 miles of mountain frontier, and the successful administration of a department deserved anything from the hands of the Government it deserved my promotion from the date of the close of those services crowned with success. But what do I find? Why, I find myself promoted junior to men who have not rendered a tithe of the services nor had a tithe of the success. I find myself ordered from the command of an army whose confidence I possess -- a separate army in the field to go and take subordinate position in a new and unformed one, where Buell, Granger, Gilbert, Schenck, Lew. Wallace, Tom Crittenden, and Bully Nelson are my seniors. Were it not a crisis for the country I would not trouble you to intercede in my behalf but would at once resign. As it is a crisis I beg you to intercede for me, that some measure of justice may be done me. If I have deserved anything for my services in Western Virginia my rank should date from the close of those services, and that is what I ask in the name of justice. "[Official Records, Series 1 - Volume 17 (Part II), page 239]
To me, he come across as a whiner.

 

[nitrofd]

Obviously there are other requests, but the one about rank is the interesting.


Ego; ambition.


Grant wasnt expected to show up at either. Did Rosecrans need the supervision?



Regarding Rosecrans request that his rank be back dated to 1861, Halleck had written him in march 1863 :
"last summer, at your request, I urged the government to promote you for success in the field, and, again at your request, urged that your commission be dated back to your services in West Virginia". [Official Records, Series 1 - Volume 23 (Part II), page 138] Halleck was apparently lobbying to get Rosecrans promoted long before Iuka and Corinth.

In September 1862, when Rosecrans learned he had at last been promoted to Major General, instead of appreciation, he complained about it to Halleck:
"If fighting successful battles having important results; if successfully defending a mountainous country against an active and powerful foe; if pacifying and restoring law and order to a vast region with 300 miles of mountain frontier, and the successful administration of a department deserved anything from the hands of the Government it deserved my promotion from the date of the close of those services crowned with success. But what do I find? Why, I find myself promoted junior to men who have not rendered a tithe of the services nor had a tithe of the success. I find myself ordered from the command of an army whose confidence I possess -- a separate army in the field to go and take subordinate position in a new and unformed one, where Buell, Granger, Gilbert, Schenck, Lew. Wallace, Tom Crittenden, and Bully Nelson are my seniors. Were it not a crisis for the country I would not trouble you to intercede in my behalf but would at once resign. As it is a crisis I beg you to intercede for me, that some measure of justice may be done me. If I have deserved anything for my services in Western Virginia my rank should date from the close of those services, and that is what I ask in the name of justice. "[Official Records, Series 1 - Volume 17 (Part II), page 239]
To me, he come across as a whiner.

Wow,his letter is something else.Talk about sour grapes.

 

[Horace Porter]

Obviously there are other requests, but the one about rank is the interesting.


Ego; ambition.


Grant wasnt expected to show up at either. Did Rosecrans need the supervision?



Regarding Rosecrans request that his rank be back dated to 1861, Halleck had written him in march 1863 :
"last summer, at your request, I urged the government to promote you for success in the field, and, again at your request, urged that your commission be dated back to your services in West Virginia". [Official Records, Series 1 - Volume 23 (Part II), page 138] Halleck was apparently lobbying to get Rosecrans promoted long before Iuka and Corinth.

In September 1862, when Rosecrans learned he had at last been promoted to Major General, instead of appreciation, he complained about it to Halleck:
"If fighting successful battles having important results; if successfully defending a mountainous country against an active and powerful foe; if pacifying and restoring law and order to a vast region with 300 miles of mountain frontier, and the successful administration of a department deserved anything from the hands of the Government it deserved my promotion from the date of the close of those services crowned with success. But what do I find? Why, I find myself promoted junior to men who have not rendered a tithe of the services nor had a tithe of the success. I find myself ordered from the command of an army whose confidence I possess -- a separate army in the field to go and take subordinate position in a new and unformed one, where Buell, Granger, Gilbert, Schenck, Lew. Wallace, Tom Crittenden, and Bully Nelson are my seniors. Were it not a crisis for the country I would not trouble you to intercede in my behalf but would at once resign. As it is a crisis I beg you to intercede for me, that some measure of justice may be done me. If I have deserved anything for my services in Western Virginia my rank should date from the close of those services, and that is what I ask in the name of justice. "[Official Records, Series 1 - Volume 17 (Part II), page 239]
To me, he come across as a whiner.

I wonder whether Mr. Moore discusses these pieces of correspondence in his book. Do you, Mr. Moore?

 

[nitrofd]

I wonder whether Mr. Moore discusses these pieces of correspondence in his book. Do you, Mr. Moore?

Interesting question,but get ready for the spin.

 

[nitrofd]

I just download a free book from amazon titled "The Army of the Cumberland" by Henry Cist..I think I need to read something new.