Edged Wpns Wrong Bayonet?

[Unsilenced]

I have a Pedersoli P-53 and a bayonet bought from C&C Sutlery labeled as a 3 band Enfield bayonet. After hours of grinding and sanding to make it a snug fit to my barrel though, I've found that all was for naught. This bayonet simply cannot and will never fit this rifle as the front sight appears to be too far back, not allowing the ring to be locked behind it. The bayonet can't be put on any further because it bumps against the brass at the front of the stock, and shortening the base of the bayonet enough to allow it to lock would cause structural problems, as well as requiring some major grinding.

My question is if anyone has had this problem or knows why it might occur. The two that come to mind are that the front sight has not been attached properly and is too far towards the rear of the rifle, or that the bayonet is simply for a different Enfield variant.

 

[7thWisconsin]

It occurs because there are dozens of bayonet makers, making a product that isn`t necessarily quality tested before shipment. The best solution is to buy a bayonet at an event where you can physically try to mate a bayonet to your musket right there in the shop. I had to try 18 bayonets before I found one that would fit my 1861 Springfield and the one that fit was the last one the owner had brought with him that weekend. I also have an Italian Brown Bess that won`t take a repro bayonet at all. Originals fit it just dandy, but reports won`t turn and lock love the bayonet lug. bayonets aren`t often used in 18th c reenacting here, so it`s not an issue. If you don`t want to try fitting another, and you`re committed to fitting this bayonet, you could have the front sight moved. Take the barrel (not the whole gun - it`lloyd worry people) to a jeweler who does repairs. Have him pop the sight off and silver solder it back one where you tell him. A cheap repair, but you might have to talk him into it because it`s going to be foreign to him. This may very well make the musket completely inaccurate for live shooting, but if you`re never going to shoot live, it won`t matter.

 

[Tin cup]

It occurs because there are dozens of bayonet makers, making a product that isn`t necessarily quality tested before shipment. The best solution is to buy a bayonet at an event where you can physically try to mate a bayonet to your musket right there in the shop. I had to try 18 bayonets before I found one that would fit my 1861 Springfield and the one that fit was the last one the owner had brought with him that weekend. I also have an Italian Brown Bess that won`t take a repro bayonet at all. Originals fit it just dandy, but reports won`t turn and lock love the bayonet lug. bayonets aren`t often used in 18th c reenacting here, so it`s not an issue. If you don`t want to try fitting another, and you`re committed to fitting this bayonet, you could have the front sight moved. Take the barrel (not the whole gun - it`lloyd worry people) to a jeweler who does repairs. Have him pop the sight off and silver solder it back one where you tell him. A cheap repair, but you might have to talk him into it because it`s going to be foreign to him. This may very well make the musket completely inaccurate for live shooting, but if you`re never going to shoot live, it won`t matter.

Can you post a picture of the bayonet in question?
Sadly, a lot of sutlers will advertise something, but closer examination shows they either don't have a clue, or don't care if they are wrong, just so they make a sale.
7thWisconsin is absolutely correct, you need to have the weapon in hand, and try different ones till you find one that does fit.

I bought a bayonet that fit my Euroarms Enfield, but it's shape was so incorrect. I looked at friends original Enfield Bayonet, and took some measurements. First I saw I had to take and cut 3/8th's of an inch off the shank coming out of the socket. I welded the socket and the shank/blade back together. I then had to weld extra metal around where the socket/shank area join, so I could grind it to proper shape. Adding too, and deleting from, I finally got it shaped where it looked something close to the real thing. All that heating, cutting, distorted the socket, so I had to carefully ream out the socket, so it would fit the barrel.
The top of the picture posted shows what the socket area looked like before I started, the bottom pic shows the end result.
Doubtful I would do this again, it was a lot of work, but worth it for me.

Kevin Dally

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Tin cup, you did a remarkable job restructuring your reproduction bayonet!
J.

 

[Craig L Barry]

That is frustrating, but it is is (sadly) a very common problem with reproduction bayonets which are mostly made in India or Pakistan. For whatever reason, Pedersoli does not offer a bayonet to fit their very good quality reproduction Enfield, or any of their other muskets for that matter. Euroarms was also famous for this shortcoming. You literally can not predict the fit of a reproduction bayonet because of the lack of quality control regarding variation in socket shape and diameter. The only way to do it is to take the musket with you to an event and keep trying them until you find one that fits.

That said, I have an original Enfield bayonet which I picked up from ebay for $60 years ago and it fits my Pedersoli P53 like a charm. By the way, for whatever reason this is not a problem with the excellent reproduction US 1842 from Armi Sport. Both reproductions and originals usually fit those without incident. It is the Enfields and US Model 1861s where there are often problems. Go figure.

On the other hand, one could make a case for going without a bayonet and have a historic basis for doing so. Not every soldier had a bayonet and they were sometimes discarded as unnecessary weight. Because reproduction bayonets are so flimsy and easily bent, they basically only fixed to the musket for stacking arms. You can't really use them satisfactorily in camp for alternate purposes as soldiers did at the time. So the best advice is find an original that fits your Pedersoli if you simply must have a bayonet for your impression.

We did programs out at Stones River this weekend out at Hells Half Acre for the anniversary and for the first time in years we were instructed to fix bayonets and charge. It is also the first time it had been out of the scabbard other than to clean and oil it in years, so I can't really say I "never" use it for historic weapons demos, but it is rare.

 

[Tin cup]

Tin cup, you did a remarkable job restructuring your reproduction bayonet!
J.

Oh thank you for that! I'll tell ya though, I have done enough welding on parts of these repro's to know they do not use the best material! When I started welding on that bayonet, I just knew it was going to sputter, pop, and pin-hole all over the place. But, it never did. It welded just fine, metal laid in where I wanted without any porosity. I never had to grind out what I just welded, just kept layering in buildup material till time to shape it.

Kevin Dally

 

[Tin cup]

When I went to get a bayonet for my Armi 1861 at a sutler, I found only one that the socket would come close to fitting. Unfortunately, the "blade" was an over-sized, tapering, triangular shape of metal, and there was too much metal at the back of the socket to allow the locking ring to slip past the sight block.
OK, I figured I could work with it, and bought it. Well, me, that "blade", and a 4" grinder proceeded to spend a good amount of time together, none of it fun!

At the time I didn't have an original bayonet to use as an example, so I winged it as best I could, looking at pictures of originals in books, and on the net. I ground off the back of the socket, so the locking ring would rotate behind the sight block. I got the blade shaped as best I could, and at a length my scabbards could handle.
It turned out to be somewhat of a close facsimile of the real thing. The picture posted is my reworked bayonet on top, an original (That came with my original 1861 Springfield) I'm lucky to have on the bottom for comparison. It's not as close as I would have liked it to be, but it's good enough, better than a lot others out there I see.

Kevin Dally

 

[Tin cup]

That is frustrating, but it is is (sadly) a very common problem with reproduction bayonets which are mostly made in India or Pakistan. ...

We did programs out at Stones River this weekend out at Hells Half Acre for the anniversary and for the first time in years we were instructed to fix bayonets and charge. It is also the first time it had been out of the scabbard other than to clean and oil it in years, so I can't really say I "never" use it for historic weapons demos, but it is rare.

We did 7th Texas, Granbury's command at the disastrous 2001 National Raymond event. Several of us didn't take bayonets, because in the OR's, Col. Granbury complained : "So near were the enemy and so impetuous the charge, that my regiment could have blooded a hundred bayonets had the men been supplied with that weapon." But it was real interesting when it came to stacking arms! Most unit's pretty much require you to have a bayonet for such purpose!

Kevin Dally

 

[Unsilenced]

http://i.imgur.com/yGKqVTD.jpg

This is what the fitting looks like right now. It's a little hard to see just how much of the sight is sticking "into" the band, but it's not insignificant. A few ways of altering the bayonet have occurred to me, but they would require significant removal of material any way I look at it. I'd rather not alter the rifle if there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[Tin cup]

http://i.imgur.com/yGKqVTD.jpg

This is what the fitting looks like right now. It's a little hard to see just how much of the sight is sticking "into" the band, but it's not insignificant. A few ways of altering the bayonet have occurred to me, but they would require significant removal of material any way I look at it. I'd rather not alter the rifle if there's nothing wrong with it.

From what I can see, if you grind off more of the back of the bayonet socket, to the point that the band can rotate freely behind the sight block, you may have most of your problem solved. You have enough material in the bottom of the socket, to take material away to allow it to slip further down. I had to do this on my 61 bayonet myself. You can also (if need be, and very carefully) unscrew the locking ring, slide it off, and take a bit of material off where it will contact the back of the sight block, to give a bit more room. The trick to all this, is it's easy to take metal away, another to put it back!

Kevin Dally

 

[Unsilenced]

From what I can see, if you grind off more of the back of the bayonet socket, to the point that the band can rotate freely behind the sight block, you may have most of your problem solved. You have enough material in the bottom of the socket, to take material away to allow it to slip further down. I had to do this on my 61 bayonet myself. You can also (if need be, and very carefully) unscrew the locking ring, slide it off, and take a bit of material off where it will contact the back of the sight block, to give a bit more room. The trick to all this, is it's easy to take metal away, another to put it back!

Kevin Dally

I thought about that, but it seemed as though a lot of material would need to be removed, perhaps even enough to compromise the structural integrity of the bayonet. The sight goes pretty far under the ring, calling for some serious material removal. Plus, I don't have a good way to remove that much material in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time.

 

[redbob]

If it is any consolation, I have had original Enfield rifles and original Enfield bayonets that wouldn't go together.

 

[johan_steele]

That is frustrating, but it is is (sadly) a very common problem with reproduction bayonets which are mostly made in India or Pakistan. For whatever reason, Pedersoli does not offer a bayonet to fit their very good quality reproduction Enfield, or any of their other muskets for that matter. Euroarms was also famous for this shortcoming. You literally can not predict the fit of a reproduction bayonet because of the lack of quality control regarding variation in socket shape and diameter. The only way to do it is to take the musket with you to an event and keep trying them until you find one that fits.

That said, I have an original Enfield bayonet which I picked up from ebay for $60 years ago and it fits my Pedersoli P53 like a charm. By the way, for whatever reason this is not a problem with the excellent reproduction US 1842 from Armi Sport. Both reproductions and originals usually fit those without incident. It is the Enfields and US Model 1861s where there are often problems. Go figure.

Would you have any idea what the Italian Company was that was making good spring steel bayonets? When I purchased my Miroku 10-15 years ago it came with an excellent spring steel bayonet. The original owner said it was an Italian repro. It fit my Miroku perfectly as well as any original M1861 I tried it on. Lodgewood had one several years ago for about the same price as an original. I can't say I've seen such a bayonet since.

 

[Craig L Barry]

Would you have any idea what the Italian Company was that was making good spring steel bayonets? When I purchased my Miroku 10-15 years ago it came with an excellent spring steel bayonet. The original owner said it was an Italian repro. It fit my Miroku perfectly as well as any original M1861 I tried it on. Lodgewood had one several years ago for about the same price as an original. I can't say I've seen such a bayonet since.

Armi Chiappa (Armi Sport) makes the better quality spring steel bayonet, but it costs more than an original. That is probably the one you are talking about. Lodgewood has them for $195.

 

[johan_steele]

Armi Chiappa (Armi Sport) makes the better quality spring steel bayonet, but it costs more than an original. That is probably the one you are talking about. Lodgewood has them for $195.

Thanks, I wondered about that as I thought there M1842 bayonet might be spring steel.

I watched a fella stick his P53 & Bayonet into a bale of hay. While he was talking he leaned against the stock and the P53 moved but the bayonet didn't. He took it over to the blacksmith who heated it up and straightened it back out... mostly. A lesson about the repros I will never forget.

 

[RGO]

I'm having a similar issue. My son and I have two bayonets for our P53 Enfields. Both bayonets fit his Armisport. Neither fit my Euroarms. Is my only option to go bayonet testing???

 

[redbob]

I'm having a similar issue. My son and I have two bayonets for our P53 Enfields. Both bayonets fit his Armisport. Neither fit my Euroarms. Is my only option to go bayonet testing???

Bayonets are like snowflakes, evidently no two are exactly alike. This week I had an original Spencer and a Sharp's that were guaranteed to fit and both took work to get them to do so. Good luck with your hunt.

 

[3rd North Carolina]

what i did when i was finding my bayonet is to bring my enfield to make sure it fits cause each one is different. i know that some people may not have that luxury but a little work it can fit.

 

[JOHN42768]

As it might be impractical to bring your firearm with you, a mock up with a piece of wooden dowel might save you a lot of grief