When was the war lost?

[damYankee]

I asked this question in another thread and thought it would be a good question for it's own OP.

When did the situation facing the South come to that point when surrender and the salvage of as much of it's national treasure, private property and blood of it's youth outweighed any hopes of defeating the North?

 

[benmax]

There were 26 Confederate army commands. Lee wasn't the only general that Davis paid attention to.

Yeah, I absolutely agree.

My post was very Lee-centric, as @damYankee mentioned that it's hard not to go down the "Lee rabbit hole" regarding this topic.

But, it just seems......that Lee almost had the final word. It was like he decided when it wasn't worth it anymore, and that took to the end of the war in the East at Appomattox.

I get the impression that if Lee was out there, winning or losing, the answer to the OPs question was not yet decided.

He was the main actor, the draw-card for the CSA.

Do you know what I mean?.....no-one certainly has to agree with me here.

I am struggling to understand what I'm trying to say myself TBH.....it's annoying me.

I may be placing a huge pedestal for Lee, but that's kinda my point.....the Confederacy did.

People needing hope will look, listen and heed the words and opinions of their hero.

 

[G Low]

Yeah, I absolutely agree.

My post was very Lee-centric, as @damYankee mentioned that it's hard not to go down the "Lee rabbit hole" regarding this topic.

But, it just seems......that Lee almost had the final word. It was like he decided when it wasn't worth it anymore, and that took to the end of the war in the East at Appomattox.

I get the impression that if Lee was out there, winning or losing, the answer to the OPs question was not yet decided.

He was the main actor, the draw-card for the CSA.

Do you know what I mean?.....no-one certainly has to agree with me here.

I am struggling to understand what I'm trying to say myself TBH.....it's annoying me.

I may be placing a huge pedestal for Lee, but that's kinda my point.....the Confederacy did.

People needing hope will look, listen and heed the words and opinions of their hero.

It wasn't over until Lee said it was…

 

[benmax]

It wasn't over until Lee said it was…

Yes, yes, yes. That's what I'm trying to say.

I stumble posting on here because 99.9999% of members know a hell of a lot more than me on The Civil War and I tend to overwrite.

Plus the Civil War to me, is complicated.

Thank you @G Low

 

[JerryD]

You know........ I've been thinking today about this.

My conclusion?

I honestly believe that fighting for the Confederacy was more important to Lee than a plan for victory.

I think that is certainly at least part of his thinking. Performing his duty, as he saw it, seems to have been very important to Lee. So if his duty required him to fight against long odds, so be it. I don't think he saw the war as unwinnable, though. It seems likely he realized he was facing long odds and thus why when you read his plans and correspondence he was always looking for an Austerlitz like result.

 

[JerryD]

Yeah, I absolutely agree.

My post was very Lee-centric, as @damYankee mentioned that it's hard not to go down the "Lee rabbit hole" regarding this topic.

But, it just seems......that Lee almost had the final word. It was like he decided when it wasn't worth it anymore, and that took to the end of the war in the East at Appomattox.

I get the impression that if Lee was out there, winning or losing, the answer to the OPs question was not yet decided.

He was the main actor, the draw-card for the CSA.

Do you know what I mean?.....no-one certainly has to agree with me here.

I am struggling to understand what I'm trying to say myself TBH.....it's annoying me.

I may be placing a huge pedestal for Lee, but that's kinda my point.....the Confederacy did.

People needing hope will look, listen and heed the words and opinions of their hero.

Basically you are saying what General Wise Told Lee on the march to Appomattox:
Lee became solemn, and asked Gen. Wise for his opinion about the "situation". Gen. Wise exploded, "Situation?, There is no situation! Nothing remains Gen. Lee, but to put your poor men on your poor mules and send them home in time for spring ploughing. This army is hopelessly whipped and is fast becoming demoralized. These men have already endured more than I believed flesh and blood could stand, and I say to you, sir, emphatically, that to prolong the struggle is murder, and the blood of every man who is killed from this time forth is on your head, General Lee."
Lee let the word sink in, then replied, "Oh, General, do not talk so wildly. My burdens are heavy enough. What would the country think of me, if I did what you suggest?"
Wise wasted no time in replying " Country be damned! There is no country! There has been no country, General for over a year or more. You are the country to these men. They have fought for you. They have shivered through a long winter for you! Without pay or clothes, or care of any sort, their devotion to and faith in you have been the thing which has held this army together. If you demand the sacrifice, there are still thousands of us who will die for you. You know the game is desperate beyond redemption, and that, if you announce, no man or government or people will gainsay your decision. That is why I repeat that the blood of any man killed hereafter is upon your head."

Lee Thread 'Wise advice for Gen. Robert E. Lee'

May 9, 2014

In the fading darkness of night as the sun began to warm the eastern skies over Virginia, a young Confederate courier who had been sleeping for a short while in a thicket of brush, exhausted from days of riding between Richmond and the HQ of Robert E. Lee, was awaken by the sound of wagons, caissons pulled by mules and horses that appeared barely able to walk another foot. Men, waves of men, bare foot, some in rags, hunger stretching their gaunt faces. They silently watched him climb back onto his weary horse and ride against the tide humanity.
At the same time another Confederate was...

• damYankee
• Replies: 52
• Forum: Famous People of the Late Unpleasantness

• 

 

[JerryD]

It wasn't over until Lee said it was…

Basically.

 

[benmax]

Basically you are saying what General Wise Told Lee on the march to Appomattox:
Lee became solemn, and asked Gen. Wise for his opinion about the "situation". Gen. Wise exploded, "Situation?, There is no situation! Nothing remains Gen. Lee, but to put your poor men on your poor mules and send them home in time for spring ploughing. This army is hopelessly whipped and is fast becoming demoralized. These men have already endured more than I believed flesh and blood could stand, and I say to you, sir, emphatically, that to prolong the struggle is murder, and the blood of every man who is killed from this time forth is on your head, General Lee."
Lee let the word sink in, then replied, "Oh, General, do not talk so wildly. My burdens are heavy enough. What would the country think of me, if I did what you suggest?"
Wise wasted no time in replying " Country be damned! There is no country! There has been no country, General for over a year or more. You are the country to these men. They have fought for you. They have shivered through a long winter for you! Without pay or clothes, or care of any sort, their devotion to and faith in you have been the thing which has held this army together. If you demand the sacrifice, there are still thousands of us who will die for you. You know the game is desperate beyond redemption, and that, if you announce, no man or government or people will gainsay your decision. That is why I repeat that the blood of any man killed hereafter is upon your head."

Lee Thread 'Wise advice for Gen. Robert E. Lee'

May 9, 2014

In the fading darkness of night as the sun began to warm the eastern skies over Virginia, a young Confederate courier who had been sleeping for a short while in a thicket of brush, exhausted from days of riding between Richmond and the HQ of Robert E. Lee, was awaken by the sound of wagons, caissons pulled by mules and horses that appeared barely able to walk another foot. Men, waves of men, bare foot, some in rags, hunger stretching their gaunt faces. They silently watched him climb back onto his weary horse and ride against the tide humanity.
At the same time another Confederate was...

• damYankee
• Replies: 52
• Forum: Famous People of the Late Unpleasantness

• 

Excellent.

 

[Rhea Cole]

It wasn't over until Lee said it was…

Then it was over in 1864. Leeds wrote that when he understood that Grant was after his army, not Richmond, He knew it was just a matter of time.

It is the commander who dictates terms who decides when it is over. Don't forget that Sheridan was chomping at the bit for one last attack to finish off the Army of Northern Virginia once & for all.

The War of the Triple Alliance is a real world example of what could have happened if Sheridan had unleashed the 25th Corps chanting, "FORT PILLOW! NO QUARTER! FORT PILLOW! NO QUARTER!"

The slave army of the Emperor of Brazil & allies killed 80% of the male population of Paraguay, 1864-1870.

It was Lincoln who said when & how it was over.

 

[benmax]

It was Lincoln who said when & how it was over.

But not from the Souths' perspective. If Lee said it's over, then the South believed it was over.....for THEM.

The South wouldn't have taken much stock in Lincoln saying that.

 

[atlantis]

Sometime between Sharpsburg and the EP going into effect would have been the best time to make peace with the US. If the confederates haven't come to terms by 1Jan 1863 you have a problem, for the US has made it clear there will be no recognition of confederate independence.

 

[damYankee]

The controversy that followed Lee's surrender was that he was only capable of surrendering his army, he didn't have the authority to negotiate the end of the war or the surrender of all CSA forces.

 

[Rhea Cole]

But not from the Souths' perspective. If Lee said it's over, then the South believed it was over.....for THEM.

The South wouldn't have taken much stock in Lincoln saying that.

South is a direction. At that time there were 4,000,000 people in that direction that did not give a fig for General Lee & what he fought for.

If this file folder is the war outside of Virginia, the stamp is the entire area of operations of the Armies of the Potomac & Northern Virginia. This is to scale.

The last Confederate general who surrendered his command was a Cherokee named Waite. Read more here.

Link:

Watie, Stand | Encyclopedia

Watie, Stand - The Encyclopedia of Oklahoma History and Culture.

www.okhistory.org

It was the Southern Historical Society that, after his death, turned Lee into the "Marble Man" you allude to. In 1865 he was just another General who had surrendered his army to Grant.

We are a few days away from the anniversary of the end of the Civil War, April 2nd 1866.

Read Andrew Johnson's proclamation here.

Link:

April 2, 1866: Proclamation on the End of the Confederate Insurrection | Miller Center

millercenter.org

 

[atlantis]

The controversy that followed Lee's surrender was that he was only capable of surrendering his army, he didn't have the authority to negotiate the end of the war or the surrender of all CSA forces.

Regarding that controversy it is clear only Davis as commander in chief and president has the authority to surrender all forces and to negotiate peace.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Regarding that controversy it is clear only Davis as commander in chief and president has the authority to surrender all forces and to negotiate peace.

Atlantis, You bring up one of the greatest moral failures of American history. Long after it was oblivious that secession had failed, Davis & others refused to entertain any form of negotiated surrender. The absurd Battle of Bentonville that did nothing but add to the misery of families in Tennessee is an example of the harm that Davis, et al, inflicted on their own people.

 

[Kearny The Magnificent]

South is a direction.

View attachment 577344
If this file folder is the war outside of Virginia, the stamp is the entire area of operations of the Armies of the Potomac & Northern Virginia. This is to scale.

The last Confederate general who surrendered his command was a Cherokee named Waite. Read more here.

Link:

Watie, Stand | Encyclopedia

Watie, Stand - The Encyclopedia of Oklahoma History and Culture.

www.okhistory.org

It was the Southern Historical Society that, after his death, turned Lee into the "Marble Man" you allude to. In 1865 he was just another General who had surrendered his army to Grant.

We are a few days away from the anniversary of the end of the Civil War, April 2nd 1866.

Read Andrew Johnson's proclamation here.

Link:

April 2, 1866: Proclamation on the End of the Confederate Insurrection | Miller Center

millercenter.org

Michael Vorenberg wrote a very good book about the many "end" dates of the Civil War. It's a bit tedious but it made me think about things and the flaw in the commonly held Appomattox = the end conclusion.

"Lincoln's Peace: The Struggle to End the American Civil War"

 

[Rhea Cole]

Michael Vorenberg wrote a very good book about the many "end" dates of the Civil War. It's a bit tedious but it made me think about things and the flaw in the commonly held Appomattox = the end conclusion.

"Lincoln's Peace: The Struggle to End the American Civil War"

Kearny the Magnificent, Agreed, Connelly's seminal "The Marble Man" opened my eyes to the agenda of those who put Lee up on that pedestal. I spent the first decade of my study of the Civil War unlearning the Southern Historical Society's false narrative of the causes & how the war was fought.

It does speak volumes of Lee's character that he would have put up with none of that during his lifetime.

 

[35th MA InfRegt]

Michael Vorenberg wrote a very good book about the many "end" dates of the Civil War. It's a bit tedious but it made me think about things and the flaw in the commonly held Appomattox = the end conclusion.

"Lincoln's Peace: The Struggle to End the American Civil War"

I just purchased this book last week. I haven't started reading it yet. I am looking forward to it.

 

[Piedone]

Lees strategy appears to have been to threaten, or better still take, the Federal capital. A short-cut to victory, to demoralise the North. That is where most of the effort seems to have been aimed. After all, the Battle of Gettysburg - which stopped the plan dead - was 90 miles NORTH of Washington. Lee seems to have assumed (or was told) that the Army of the Potomac was ON the Potomac, South of Washington DC, so a sweep from the West around the Potomac and then down on Washington from the North (as well as an advance from the South?) would have entrapped the government in Washington allowing little chance of escape. Another one of the big upsets in this plan was the separation of his cavalry who continued the push North, but on the other side of the Blue Ridge Mountains.

Whether this would have stopped Grant in the West and Sherman's subsequent 'drive to the sea' is debatable, but Gettysburg prevented that outcome. In any case, if Lee had won at Gettysburg, would he have had enough men left to march on Washington?

I am not so sure that Lee really planned to conquer Washington.
This would have been easy to do after Bull Run.

But since then the Union funneled a lot of ressources in the fortification of the capital (just like the South did with Richmond).

An direct attack on Washington might have been not very promising - given the supply problems of the ANV since 1863 and their - in comparision with the Union - weakness in artillery, especially regarding long range and siege guns.

I deem it more probable that he tried to lure the AoP into the countryside and into manoeuvre warfare - to try to catch the federals somwhere on the wrong foot to smash them….

 

[Piedone]

...

 

[Rhea Cole]

I just purchased this book last week. I haven't started reading it yet. I am looking forward to it.

I encourage you to compliment it with Connelly's "The Marble Man." It is still in print over fifty years later. It is hard to find a historical book or article on this subject without that book in the footnotes.