What is this cannon?

[danielking1775]

In doing searches of smaller cannons I ran across this photo. Is this an ames 3 or 4 pounder in service?

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I do not know what cannon that is, but what I can say is it ain't no 3 or 4 pounder. It is too small to be the former, and WAY too small to be the latter.

I would bet it was some oddball gun pawned off on the War Department for anti-infantry use, similar to what the Woodruff and Requa guns were for.

Let us remember in 19th Century America, there were a ton of small cannon in use and being made all over. The Fur Trade, River Trade in the West, migration into the West, and so on ensured some enterprising soul somewhere could find a market for tiny guns. Guns that would've been called swivel guns in earlier times.

For example, Missouri State Guard inventories show an iron 3-pounder, which supposedly shouldn't exist where iron and 3-pound guns are concerned.

 

[danielking1775]

Very cool. I'd love to know more about this piece. It would fit the bill of what I'm looking for.

 

[John Winn]

I don't know what that is but it's such a small caliber that I don't really see the utility as artillery. Certainly the support necessary to transport and service that would be a waste. They'd have been better off to be infantry armed with good rifles.

 

[danielking1775]

This gun belonged to the 98th Pennsylvania Infantry.

 

[danielking1775]

My apologies actually the 96th PA. Here is an article on that very cannon! Anyone have a rough guess of the length? Almost looks like a half scale napoleon.

THE MISSING CANNON OF THE GOOD INTENT ARTILLERY CO. C 96th P.V.I.

Tag on Photo to enlarge The Cannon on the left is the one made by Shalk the Gunsmith of Pottsville. The other is an Ager Gun. The men in the...

schuylkillcountymilitaryhistory.blogspot.com

 

[cannonmn]

The Metheun MA police dept. has a cannon like that, I don't think they are 100% clear on where it came from. Unmarked. If I can find the article on it I'll post. If you have any message for them I'll relay it to my POC there. Ya never know.

Restored Civil War-Era Cannon Returns Home to Methuen Police - WHAV

A restored Civil War cannon has taken up residence at the Methuen Police Station after sitting in storage for nearly a decade. Methuen Police Department’s curator of historical artifacts, Officer Aaron Little, his son Ben and retired Greater Lawrence Tech. lead auto body instructor Thomas Hatem...

whav.net

 

[danielking1775]

Thanks, I think the one at the place dept may be a full scale napoleon I can't really tell.

 

[Rhea Cole]

It is bronze, has a muzzle swell & decorative bands. The carriage is of a very light construction. In my opinion, this could be a signal gun. I have personally fired a very similar piece for morning & evening guns.

It is limbered up, which is interesting. There is a possibility that it was a training piece used by a school. The bracken on the tires indicate that it had been rolled into position for the photo. The left wheel is chocked with a piece of split firewood. Not just a decorative object then.

Most likely it is a signal gun with a 1.75" bore. It would have been used on parades & fire salutes to high ranking officers. It would have been kept in a garrison, fort, HQ or similar facility, not active service. Not a perfect angle for definite ID, but it looks like a Model 1820 signal gun.

 

[Belfoured]

The Metheun MA police dept. has a cannon like that, I don't think they are 100% clear on where it came from. Unmarked. If I can find the article on it I'll post. If you have any message for them I'll relay it to my POC there. Ya never know.

Restored Civil War-Era Cannon Returns Home to Methuen Police - WHAV

A restored Civil War cannon has taken up residence at the Methuen Police Station after sitting in storage for nearly a decade. Methuen Police Department’s curator of historical artifacts, Officer Aaron Little, his son Ben and retired Greater Lawrence Tech. lead auto body instructor Thomas Hatem...

whav.net

I don't see how that's a M1841 6 lb. The carriage appears to be too small. I can't see enough of the tube to see if its measures up to the 1841 design. The breech design looks appropriate but the tube doesn't seem to be 60". According to the article, this gun was displayed at Methuen City Hall until 2012. What's odd is that at least between 2018 and some date after March 2020 a similar gun/carriage was stationed in the "tunnel" entrance to City Hall. I know because I was there several times on business and looked at it. If this is the same gun, it appeared to me to be a sort of 3 lb tube/carriage. IMHO I'd be surprised if the bore was 3.67" at the muzzle, although I never took the calipers to it. I've always assumed it was some sort of signal gun/replica.

 

[Ole Miss]

@redbob probably served on one them and may recognize the crew members!
Regards
David

 

[Rhea Cole]

I don't see how that's a M1841 6 lb. The carriage appears to be too small. I can't see enough of the tube to see if its measures up to the 1841 design. The breech design looks appropriate but the tube doesn't seem to be 60". According to the article, this gun was displayed at Methuen City Hall until 2012. What's odd is that at least between 2018 and some date after March 2020 a similar gun/carriage was stationed in the "tunnel" entrance to City Hall. I know because I was there several times on business and looked at it. If this is the same gun, it appeared to me to be a sort of 3 lb tube/carriage. IMHO I'd be surprised if the bore was 3.67" at the muzzle, although I never took the calipers to it. I've always assumed it was some sort of signal gun/replica.

I compared the muzzle with the sword belt buckle of the officer thumbing the vent to establish the diameter. This was an interesting bit of research. There was an 1857 model signal gun, it is iron & modeled on the Napoleon. The 1864 model naval signal gun looks like a section of sewer pipe. 1820 model signal gun has all the features this one has. This isn't the best angle, but it has the features of that model.

There is a side view of an original model 1820 on a naval carriage, Google model 1820 signal gun. It is on Penterest.

 

[Story]

Thanks, I think the one at the place dept may be a full scale napoleon I can't really tell.

Per article, Civil War Model 1841 six-pounder field gun

 

[Story]

I compared the muzzle with the sword belt buckle of the officer thumbing the vent to establish the diameter. This was an interesting bit of research. There was an 1857 model signal gun, it is iron & modeled on the Napoleon. The 1864 model naval signal gun looks like a section of sewer pipe. 1820 model signal gun has all the features this one has. This isn't the best angle, but it has the features of that model.

Got any illustrations you can share?

ETA - this period signal guns has the lines of full sized guns

Antique Military Large American Ships Bronze Signal Cannon at 1stDibs

View this item and discover similar for sale at 1stDibs - AMERICAN SHIP'S BRONZE SIGNAL CANNON Guaranteed Authentic! Presented is an exceptional, full size, cast bronze cannon in a style that was used by both

www.1stdibs.com

 

[Story]

From the previously posted article

THE MISSING CANNON OF THE GOOD INTENT ARTILLERY CO. C 96th P.V.I.

Tag on Photo to enlarge The Cannon on the left is the one made by Shalk the Gunsmith of Pottsville. The other is an Ager Gun. The men in the...

schuylkillcountymilitaryhistory.blogspot.com

A brass field piece intended for use of the company will be cast by G.W. Snyder and rifled by Mr. Shalk*. It will have a point blank range of 2 miles.

* Most likely this fellow -
George Schalk 1820-1893. Gunsmith. Pottsville,Schuykill County. Census of 1860, he is listed as 34, merchant gunsmith, value, 2000.00, Sophia 34.
1863 Civil War draft, George Schalk 39, gunsmith.
1870 census more of the same, except 3000.00 property value, 1500.00 personal.
1890 census listed as a Gunsmith age 65.
Schalk's measurments for number of lead balls per pound has been universally accepted.
Died October 1893 burried Charles baber Cemetery, Pottsville.
(Source https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=50496.0 )

The members were unable to secure any ordnance to drill with and finally the "boys" decided to swipe brass and make a cannon themselves. Piece by piece they scraped together the brass while some poor, unsuspecting victim scratched his head and wondered at the mysterious disappearance of some article of brass from his shop or household. When enough had been secured the brass was melted and molded into a fine cannon by Geo. W. Snyder. The cannon was the "only one" in the eyes of the boys and carefully guarded.

Chances are this is the G(eorge) W Snyder in question

George W Snyder (1804-1886) - Find a Grave...

Find a Grave memorial for George W Snyder born 1804 and died 25 Sep 1886. Buried at Charles Baber Cemetery, Pottsville, Schuylkill County, Pennsylvania, United States of America, North America

www.findagrave.com

Snyder, George W. (George W. Snyder)​

Pottsville, PA​

1835(1850?)-1880s​

After about 15 years as partner in a machine shop, Snyder became sole proprietor; built some narrow gauge, mining and industrial locomotives. "G.W. Snyder" is listed under "Car Builders" in the 1877 edition of Poor's Directory of Railway Officials, though it is unknown what, if any, cars he built. (See Railroad Gazette, 8 October 1886.)​

Railway Car Builders of North America

The precious cannon was taken along with the 96th Regt., but was finally turned over to a New England Battery, and that was the last seen or heard of it, although the members of the old battery after the war made many an attempt to discover its whereabouts, the cannon accomplished valuable service and the men feel confident that they have been forgiven for pilfering the brass with which it was made.

$20 says it was melted down in a scrap drive for WWI or WWII.

 

[danielking1775]

It is bronze, has a muzzle swell & decorative bands. The carriage is of a very light construction. In my opinion, this could be a signal gun. I have personally fired a very similar piece for morning & evening guns.

It is limbered up, which is interesting. There is a possibility that it was a training piece used by a school. The bracken on the tires indicate that it had been rolled into position for the photo. The left wheel is chocked with a piece of split firewood. Not just a decorative object then.

Most likely it is a signal gun with a 1.75" bore. It would have been used on parades & fire salutes to high ranking officers. It would have been kept in a garrison, fort, HQ or similar facility, not active service. Not a perfect angle for definite ID, but it looks like a Model 1820 signal gun.

Thank for the input. Read the story on the link above it tells about this gun. It was locally cast for the 96th PA.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Got any illustrations you can share?

ETA - this period signal guns has the lines of full sized guns

Antique Military Large American Ships Bronze Signal Cannon at 1stDibs

View this item and discover similar for sale at 1stDibs - AMERICAN SHIP'S BRONZE SIGNAL CANNON Guaranteed Authentic! Presented is an exceptional, full size, cast bronze cannon in a style that was used by both

www.1stdibs.com

If you google model 1820 signal cannon there is a Pentrest image of an 1820 on a naval carriage. The the photo above is of an 1820 model signal cannon.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Per article, Civil War Model 1841 six-pounder field gun

View attachment 458715View attachment 458716

This is a section of 1841 model six pounders.

Notice how much bigger the carriage & diameter of the wheels are compared to the signal gun above.

 

[redbob]

@redbob probably served on one them and may recognize the crew members!
Regards
David

Thanks, Grandpa.

 

[Story]

This is a section of 1841 model six pounders.
Notice how much bigger the carriage & diameter of the wheels are compared to the signal gun above.

I think some confusion has crept into this thread.

1) The Methuen gun is a 6lb M1841 - see post 14, where I compare it (with the police officer for scale) with a period photo (with crew for scale).

2) The 96th PA gun is a one-off cast and bored by Pottsville PA artisans. It's lines are too 'smooth' to be based on an 1820's style tube.