Weapon ID help

[ranger326]

I have recently acquired, what is, I think, a "Frankenmusket" (i.e., made of many different parts). It was thought to have been an 1816 type contract musket, and part of it probably is. I have included as many pictures with markings as I can. The lock is flint, marked "Warranted" across the tail. The lock looks somewhat crude to me. The barrel appears with the marking, "H. Groot" and underneath that,"Maker". The barrel also has, what I suppose are proof initials, "JH" underneath "U.S.". The circle P appears under the JH. The butt plate has the number "91" stamped on it. The rearmost barrel band has a small "S" on the outside. The middle barrel band has a larger "S" stamped on the inside. I can find no markings on the stock. The musket is in serviceable shape. Any information thrown my way would be most welcome.

 

[UCVRelics]

It is an interesting piece and out of my wheel house as it way pre CW so lets call in a way old pre CW guru paging @johan_steele

 

[johan_steele]

It's US made, at least most of it. Looks to me like an 1816 type arm but the lock looks wrong from what I can see on my phone.

 

[rob63]

What I can see of the lockplate appears to be from a Brown Bess. Muskets made for the commercial market were often marked "Warranted." Nothing else of it appears to be English though. Can you post a photo of the entire lock?

 

[ranger326]

Thanks guys.
In my little bit of research so far, I have found information that "H.Groot" may be Henry Groot who made percussion barrels in the 1860's. Also, I have heard stories that the south actually had percussion arms converted to flint as finding flints was easier than finding percussion caps.

 

[rebed19th]

It looks like it is an incorrect hammer for a Brown Bess. A brown bess would have a top and bottom jaw that the flint would sit between and attached together with a jaw screw . The hammer on your piece looks to have a hole on the side which would not hold a flint.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

The hole in the side is not supposed to hold a flint, it is just a way to lighten the weight of the later (and sturdier) version of a flintlock hammer - this is missing the top jaw, a very common situation.

 

[rebed19th]

Maybe we can get a photo to see if there is a hole for the jaw screw. Cant tell if there is one from the original photo. Thanks

 

[ranger326]

Sorry gents.
I took the top jaw off for cleaning. Here's a picture with the flint before I took it apart.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I did a search for H. Groot. It is a Dutch name. Discovered three references to a gun maker:

Groot, Henry--Gunsmith of Pittsfield, Mass., 1866-68, Minneapolis, Minn., 1869-71.

Guns & Sporting Apparatus, Groot H.R., Pittsfield Massachusetts Business Directory for the Year 1856.

He is also listed in the 1850 Mass. Business Directory

It doesn't say anything specific about your piece, but maybe some knowledgeable person can put together a Massachusetts gunmaker named Groot, perhaps the father of the Henry Groot, & complete your story.

 

[tbuckley]

It looks pretty good for a "frankenmusket". I wonder if this was made for Massachusetts or other New England state militia. Just a thought.

 

[FedericoFCavada]

Some later British muskets, aka. "Brown Besses" did use a double-throated cock like the one pictured. It was a French feature, that was found to be much sturdier than the goose-neck cocks of older and earlier muskets, including the early patterns of Bess.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

The stock appears to be from a M1822 (M1816 type II), based on the trigger guard. The comb has a more pronounced comb that what would be typical of a National Armory or a Federal contract gun, which may indicate that it was privately made.

Based on the location of the bayonet lug, and the apparent length of the barrel flats, I believe the barrel to be from a Pomeroy or Nippes contract M1840. The front barrel band is a Model 1840 or Model 1842 (there is no difference).

The lock is a commercial English lock similar to what would be found on an India Pattern Brown Bess musket. The hammer is of the reinforced variety introduced in 1809. I do not believe that it is a British military lock though.

Also, I have heard stories that the south actually had percussion arms converted to flint as finding flints was easier than finding percussion caps.

There are absolutely no records to substantiate that. Converting a percussion arm to flint would not be an easy or economical process since one would need so many additional parts to accomplish it.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Is the "H GROOT / MAKER" on the bottom on of the barrel or on top of the barrel?

 

[Rhea Cole]

While searching for Mr. Groot, I have found an astonishing reference titled, Our Rifles 1920. It contains hundreds of illustrations & individual descriptions/histories of civilian & military rifles. It includes a chapter on rifles used against the U.S. that includes Confederate manufactured rifles. If you are interested in period firearms, take a look at this book. I saw many examples that I had never seen or heard of before.

www.survivorlibrary.com/library/our_rifles-firearms_in_american-history_1920.pdf

 

[ranger326]

"H. Groot
Maker"

Appears on the top of the barrel about three-four inches from the proof mark.
Thanks much for the link to "Our Rifles 1920". Already downloaded and waiting for a rainy day. I saw other interesting reads as well.

Thank you again all. I knew this musket was a bit of, what my grandmother would call a, "hodge-podge".
Whatever was done, it looks like it was done a long time ago. I'm impressed with how well the lock fits the wood.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I am not a student of these flintlock muskets, but have certainly looks at hundreds over the years (mostly converted from flint to percussion), but I do not think it is common to have such a mark of a nam on a military musket. The other marks are standard military proof marks I would expect to see on such a musket.
But many civilian gunsmiths would put such a mark not only on guns they made, but on guns they repaired, and it may well be that GROOT put this together, or just fixed or replaced the lock.

 

[S.Isaacson]

The way that lock plate is marked matches those on many commercial musket locks manufactured in England at the time. For example, a commercial India Pattern Flintlock Musket with "W.J./KING" at the center of the lock where your lock has been defaced and then the same style "WARRANTED" marking at the back.

 

[ranger326]

I wondered about the lock looking seemingly marred. If it was purposefully defaced, I wonder why they felt compelled to do that?

 

[ranger326]

I found a couple of more marks as I was cleaning the musket.
The one is a "T" on the underside of the barrel near the breech.
The other mark is harder to declare. Best guess is a "W"? Found on the underside of the lock.