Chattanooga Was Chattanooga the turning point?

[Creighton1930]

Did it turn the tide of the war in the west?

 

[Sheltowee]

Middle Tennessee, Kentucky, Northern Alabama, Vicksburg and the Mississippi had already been lost. Personally, I would rewind to Ft. Donelson...... when the momentum really shifted.

 

[dlofting]

I think you can make a case for a number of "turning points" in the west all the way back to Fort Donelson and Shiloh....it just depends on your point of view.

 

[NedBaldwin]

I think tide had turned before that
Im going with Champion Hill

 

[Nathan Stuart]

In my view, the fall of Vicksburg on July 4, 1863 (with Port Hudson surrendering shortly afterwards) was the real turning point.

The effects of losing Vicksburg included that it:

. opened up the Mississippi and gave control of the inland waterways to the Union;

. effectively split the Confederacy into two, virtually ending any hope of Southern independence;

. had economic effects for the South with the loss of the resource-rich states west of the Mississippi;

. launched Grant into national prominence and greatly fostered his ascendancy into more senior leadership roles; &

. had a damaging psychological effect on Southern thinking, with many thinking it was a seemingly impregnable
fortified defensive position.


Lincoln once remarked earlier in the war that, …'Vicksburg is the key.'…

 

[NedBaldwin]

In my view, the fall of Vicksburg on July 4, 1863 (with Port Hudson surrendering shortly afterwards) was the real turning point.

The effects of losing Vicksburg included that it:

. opened up the Mississippi and gave control of the inland waterways to the Union;

. effectively split the Confederacy into two, virtually ending any hope of Southern independence;

. had economic effects for the South with the loss of the resource-rich states west of the Mississippi;

. launched Grant into national prominence and greatly fostered his ascendancy into more senior leadership roles; &

. had a damaging psychological effect on Southern thinking, with many thinking it was a seemingly impregnable
fortified defensive position.


Lincoln once remarked earlier in the war that, …'Vicksburg is the key.'…

Also up to that point the US has been pursuing multiple main lines of advance. Once Vicksburg fell, the Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta axis became the single main focus with everything else secondary

 

[David Moore]

In my view, the fall of Vicksburg on July 4, 1863 (with Port Hudson surrendering shortly afterwards) was the real turning point.

The effects of losing Vicksburg included that it:

. opened up the Mississippi and gave control of the inland waterways to the Union;

. effectively split the Confederacy into two, virtually ending any hope of Southern independence;

. had economic effects for the South with the loss of the resource-rich states west of the Mississippi;

. launched Grant into national prominence and greatly fostered his ascendancy into more senior leadership roles; &

. had a damaging psychological effect on Southern thinking, with many thinking it was a seemingly impregnable
fortified defensive position.


Lincoln once remarked earlier in the war that, …'Vicksburg is the key.'…

Don't forget that Grant took a well deserved vacation in New Orleans after Vicksburg. Unfortunately his horse probably got drunk and threw Grant. No doubt his example inspired Rosecrans to cross the mountains and rivers around Chattanooga and survive a battle against a larger force. Grant would become an expert on larger forces ( as long as it was he who wasn't facing larger forces.) The man should be made a SIx Star General.

 

[David Moore]

Middle Tennessee, Kentucky, Northern Alabama, Vicksburg and the Mississippi had already been lost. Personally, I would rewind to Ft. Donelson...... when the momentum really shifted.

Middle Tennessee was being lost while Vicksburg was besieged. Dates matter in history.

 

[David Moore]

Did it turn the tide of the war in the west?

Easy question. Chattanooga led to Atlanta.
Of course on this site if Grant wasn't involved it's not important. (Unless Grant didn't do so well.)

 

[shooter too]

Lincoln once remarked earlier in the war that, …'Vicksburg is the key.'…

"The Father of Waters again goes unvexed to the sea."--A. Lincoln

Vicksburg Campaign: Unvexing the Father of Waters

Civil War History, Vicksburg Campaign summary

www.battlefields.org

 

[shooter too]

Unfortunately his horse probably got drunk and threw Grant.

More likely his horse slipped in a strewn pile of cattle or mule shat.

Shat happens, and we do not have a Zapruder film of "the event."

 

[NedBaldwin]

Easy question. Chattanooga led to Atlanta.
Of course on this site if Grant wasn't involved it's not important. (Unless Grant didn't do so well.)

Awful lot of Gettysburg threads on this site which have nothing to so with Grant
And McClellan debates that have nothing to do with Grant
etc etc
So spare us the theatrics

 

[NedBaldwin]

Don't forget that Grant took a well deserved vacation in New Orleans after Vicksburg. Unfortunately his horse probably got drunk and threw Grant. No doubt his example inspired Rosecrans ...

Grant goes to New Orleans to consult with Banks; arrives on September 2; on the 3rd discusses strategy. review troops, etc; on the 4th celebrates, goes for a ride, crashes and ends up needing crutches for weeks. How is that a well deserved vacation?
Why the unserious rant?
What does it have to do with Rosecrans?

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Grant goes to New Orleans to consult with Banks; arrives on September 2; on the 3rd discusses strategy. review troops, etc; on the 4th celebrates, goes for a ride, crashes and ends up needing crutches for weeks. How is that a well deserved vacation?
Why the unserious rant?
What does it have to do with Rosecrans?

Grant was in a lot of pain and discomfort during the Chattanooga campaign, as the result of his fall at New Orleans.

While traveling on horseback over the steep ridges and in the rain to Chattanooga, his horse fell over, badly jamming his already injured leg. Grant had to be lifted into the saddle and helped with dismounting during the journey. Grant was in a bad way at Chattanooga with his severely injured leg. Wonder how severe the leg injury was (bruising/ligaments/fracture etc.).

 

[David Moore]

More likely his horse slipped in a strewn pile of cattle or mule shat.

Shat happens, and we do not have a Zapruder film of "the event."

There were reports of alcohol and we've all been taught that Grant never was impacted by alcohol so it must have been the horse.

 

[johan_steele]

No and it wasn't Vicksburg either, though that is a close 2nd. When New Orleans fell and the CS made no effort to retake it the CS shell was exposed and the world was shown that the CS was not the power house it promised itself to be. Anyone watching understood that if the CS couldn't keep or retake New Orleans what could they keep hold of? It wasn't just islands and major cities things the CS couldn't hold but all along the periphery they lacked the ability to retake lost territory. After New Orleans it became fact that the CS couldn't or wouldn't retake lost territory, to include major cities, it became only a matter of time.

 

[David Moore]

No and it wasn't Vicksburg either, though that is a close 2nd. When New Orleans fell and the CS made no effort to retake it the CS shell was exposed and the world was shown that the CS was not the power house it promised itself to be. Anyone watching understood that if the CS couldn't keep or retake New Orleans what could they keep hold of? It wasn't just islands and major cities things the CS couldn't hold but all along the periphery they lacked the ability to retake lost territory. After New Orleans it became fact that the CS couldn't or wouldn't retake lost territory, to include major cities, it became only a matter of time.

Same could be said about Western Virginia in 1861.

 

[johan_steele]

Same could be said about Western Virginia in 1861.

New Orleans Population: 170k +/-, major port, significant city in the CS with worldwide recognition. West Virginia was one of the first dominoes but it wasn't the first. The CS showed from the start it lacked the ability to hold territory and the US proved it could take and hold it from the Keys to Ship Island to New Orleans to West Virginia all the CS could do was eventually bleed out.

The only thing western about West Virginia is the name.

 

[jackt62]

A "turning point" would mean that the course of the war was noticeably altered by a particular engagement. But I would not call Chattanooga a turning point in that regard. The federal armies were already advancing throughout the west prior to Chattanooga, and would continue to do so afterwards. It there is a real turning point in the western conflict, it would have to be either Ft. Donelson or Vicksburg. The fall of Donelson effectively busted open the southern defense line in Kentucky and Tennessee, and began the process of northern control of the key riverine routes. The Confederacy failed to stop that momentum at Shiloh, but did succeed in holding off the fall of Vicksburg and its garrison for at least 6 months. But that was only a temporary halt on the road to Union domination. Same with Chickamauga; the AoT's victory was short-lived and did nothing to stop the federal advance along the axis ranging from Nashville to Atlanta.

 

[Irishtom29]

There was no turning point in the west. A couple of hiccups though.