Vicksburg Bluffs

[huskerblitz]

Murfreesboro is neat. Is Chickasaw bluffs around still?

@huskerblitz was there a few years ago:



@mt155 took a fantastic photo of the bluffs, you can see it here:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/chickasaw-bluff.82705/#post-621189

Yes, still around and as been mentioned it is remarkably the same as it was in 1862. The road DeCourcey's brigade marched down is still there as well, just paved over now. There is not a ton to see except for the terrain and a badly conditioned marker. But easy to get to and doesn't take a great deal of time. Most if not all can be viewed from a vehicle.

The bluffs in the background.

Field where my relative was killed on the 27th.

This is the dense foliage that hides the bayou where Confederates fired at the advancing Union army.

 

[Forrest]

Yes it is amazing....and somewhat confusing considering there doesn't appear to be as much attention or attempt to accurately mark the river batteries....in some cases anyway.

here is another photo of the area where the Company A marker is located...you can see the corner of the marker in the lower right corner and the copula of the Courthouse in the upper background.....
View attachment 96787

This is the one that is in the wrong spot, if you consider it to be 'the' marker for the 'Whig Office Battery'.

(I'm going to take my time and respond to the stuff I think I "know" )

 

[Tompre]

This is the one that is in the wrong spot, if you consider it to be 'the' marker for the 'Whig Office Battery'.

(I'm going to take my time and respond to the stuff I think I "know" )

That's the one at the foot of Washington Street. But the gun was only placed there on the 18th of May. Which is late for the Whig Office battery. It may be that this gun was taken from the Whig Office battery.

 

[Forrest]

Not the red marker says nothing about the Whig Office battery. But the comment on the page beside the plaque which you posted,says the Whig battery as attached to this unit. That is according to Ed Bearess. It may be that company A had more than one gun,and were in different places. I will find out where the plaque is located. You have to realize that the plaque in the parking lot of the Corps of Engineers museum is a new marker,the other being taken during the WWII scrap drives. A lot of these plaques were placed in preparation for the 150th Anniversary. That area a during the war was the Vicksburg Foundry, aka,AB Reading foundry. But even Ed Bearess could be in error.

It is well-documented that Company A manned the Whig Office Battery. Hugh Moss was an artillerist in Company A and arrived in Vicksburg on May 5, 1862. At that time there was no Whig Office Battery. He states in his journal entry of April 25, 1863: "We took charge of a ten-inch Columbiad at the foot of Washington Street." I assume that is when the Whig Office Battery was created. Moss had been in the hospital from July, 1862 until arriving back at his command on February 15, 1863 - at that point, according to Moss: "...having three light pieces to guard", which indicates to me that the ten-inch Columbiad they would be assigned to on April 25, was still elsewhere.

The marker shown below states that Company A manned a 10-inch Columbiad at that position from May 18. Perhaps the emplacement for the 10-inch Columbiad was moved from the foot of Washington Street to the location of the marker (significantly different position) during the 3 1/2 week gap. But there wasn't another ten-inch Columbiad in that immediate area that I am aware of, so either it was moved or the location on the red marker near the old steamboat landing is incorrect (I believe it's the latter).

the red metal marker for Company A 8th La. Heavy Artillery is on the river front behind the Corps of Engineers museum...near the old steamboat landing.

View attachment 96778

 

[Forrest]

That's the one at the foot of Washington Street. But the gun was only placed there on the 18th of May. Which is late for the Whig Office battery. It may be that this gun was taken from the Whig Office battery.

I had not thought of that angle - that makes perfect sense. The lower 'new' emplacement would still have been considered to be part of the 'Whig Office Battery'.

 

[Forrest]

I just went back and re-read the April-May part of Moss' journal. Moss' detachment was firing from their 10-inch Columbiad regularly through at least May 2. With the siege about to begin and the constant presence of the Yankees, I have a hard time believing they moved that cannon to a point a block northwest of where it had been. In addition, Moss doesn't mention moving the cannon, which I think he would have. He never left his post (per May 15 entry: "I have been on constant duty since February") up until the siege began.

My thinking is that the May 18 - July 4 dates on the marker are just there to indicate the siege period. So I'm back to believing the marker is placed in an errant position.

 

[Vicksburger]

So the Whig Office Battery was basically where the Dahlgren gun is currently, in front of the Drug Store?

 

[Tompre]

Yes,that seems to be the general consensus,that is where the Whig Office was. i have posted a fb post from the Park Guides. If you are on fb,you may want to follow them, they have access to a lot of Park material.

 

[Vicksburger]

Yes,that seems to be the general consensus,that is where the Whig Office was. i have posted a fb post from the Park Guides. If you are on fb,you may want to follow them, they have access to a lot of Park material.

Was the old Washington Hotel where the Drug Store (Gerache's old drug store) is? Or was it further "up" the hill?

 

[Tompre]

Was the old Washington Hotel where the Drug Store (Gerache's old drug store) is? Or was it further "up" the hill?

It was across Washington Street from the drug store. It sat where the cannon sits today. It took up most of the block. I enclosed a photo of the hotel

 

[Tompre]

And one from the rear

 

[Forrest]

Yes,that seems to be the general consensus,that is where the Whig Office was. i have posted a fb post from the Park Guides. If you are on fb,you may want to follow them, they have access to a lot of Park material.

Whose general consensus?

Here is a map that shows the location of the Whig Office Battery, at the foot of Washington Street. Please indicate on this map where you think it actually was located.

 

[Tompre]

Whose general consensus?

The people of Vicksburg. It's like the USS Cairo, Ed Bearess claimed he found it,when in reality all he had to do was ask certain people and they would have told him where it was. Information has been handed from generation to generation.

 

[Forrest]

The people of Vicksburg. It's like the USS Cairo, Ed Bearess claimed he found it,when in reality all he had to do was ask certain people and they would have told him where it was. Information has been handed from generation to generation.

I was just talking with someone who is trying to sell a photograph of Cap Anson from his college days at Notre Dame. I did a little research (which is appropriate in such cases of history being passed down by word of mouth) and found that the story began with an ancestor who played baseball AGAINST Cap Anson on a Notre Dame team that was part of basically, an intramural league. It's easy to see how the ancestor might have had his story changed to played WITH Cap Anson, and eventually a descendant misidentified one of the players on the photo as Anson. The information was passed down from generation to generation, and got corrupted. It happens.

I could also see how an old gun pit could be described as the actual battery because it was near the Whig Office, which the battery was named for. There were gun pits, emplacement and trenches all over Vicksburg. I believe the map I posted above is fairly accurate, if for no other reason than it is period and very detailed. It also appears to be the basis of later maps that are slightly different. Just as words change as they are passed from generation to generation, so do maps as they are copied and re-copied. The original sources, such as early maps and actual Confederate journal entries and letters, are a much better bet.

 

[Tompre]

Whose general consensus?

Here is a map that shows the location of the Whig Office Battery, at the foot of Washington Street. Please indicate on this map where you think it actually was located.

View attachment 96911

That's not the foot of Washington Street. Washington Street went on to Glass Bayou,that creek that you see in your picture. You should come to Vicksburg and familiarize yourself with the town layout so you will understand.

 

[Forrest]

If you look at the Civil War period maps of Vicksburg, you'll see that the foot of Washington Street was not where it is located now.

I appreciate your wealth of knowledge and contributions, but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I really have to go by period primary sources whenever possible - 'passed down from generation to generation' information is generally quite unreliable. I could give you countless additional examples, all based on personal experience while traveling around the country doing research on events that only happened one hundred years ago. Entire towns are certain about things that never occurred, and in many cases all they needed to do was read the old newspapers on microfilm. These ancient 'truths' die hard, if at all. Digging friendly heads out of deep sand is not in my agenda.

 

[Tompre]

If you look at the Civil War period maps of Vicksburg, you'll see that the foot of Washington Street was not where it is located now.

I appreciate your wealth of knowledge and contributions, but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I really have to go by period primary sources whenever possible - 'passed down from generation to generation' information is generally quite unreliable. I could give you countless additional examples, all based on personal experience while traveling around the country doing research on events that only happened one hundred years ago. Entire towns are certain about things that never occurred, and in many cases all they needed to do was read the old newspapers on microfilm. These ancient 'truths' die hard, if at all. Digging friendly heads out of deep sand is not in my agenda.

Ok, tell me where the Whig Office battery is! The first picture is taken on Levee Street at the waterfront, is shows where the Washington Hotel was located on the hill. I am close to where the Whig Office was located, but it was further up the hill which is now gone. The second photo is taken from the same location and showing the foot of Washington Street. The man in the distance is standing beside the sign for the 10 inch gun. It is about a block distance.

 

[Forrest]

I posted a period map that shows the exact location - the 'circle' represents the 10-inch Columbiad placement. It is EXACTLY at the 1863 location of the 'foot of Washington Street'. Also, as I've stated so many times that I am going to have to apologize to anyone who has actually read anything I've written - Hugh Moss' entry refers to the exact same placement;i.e-a period map and a period journal entry of someone who was there for the entire siege, are EXACTLY the same. I have also done my best to explain why generation-to-generation-to-generation descriptions of the area may no longer be accurate.

So, basically, I'm done with this - I just have better places to put my energy that to re-hashing something that I have no more details to add, and I haven't seen any additional ones from you either. We've been repeating ourselves for post after post, which has got to be tedious for everyone else who is trying to glean useful information from this thread.

Again, my apologies and adios (to this thread, not the forum )

 

[jack1492]

This probably won't really be of much help, but there are several positions of Confederate batteries marked with plaques in downtown Vicksburg; although this isn't part of the park, they're the exact same type of metal plaques. Here's one that's even more obvious:

Also, though not Whistling Dick (which I think may no longer exist), the Widow Blakely is on display in the Louisiana Circle (between downtown and the Mississippi River Bridge and a part of the park) even though as the plaque states, this was not her actual position during the siege:

Is this the gun that has signatures all over it? I stood next to it but don't remember which one it is at the moment.

 

[Vicksburger]

The Depot battery was located in the area where the Vicksburg convention center is now. I will take a picture of It and post it.That's not Grant' s headquarters, that's Judge Marshall's house. Grant stayed at the Lum home which was torn down and a battery was built on the site. The Dahlgren cannon on Washington Street, which is located next to where the Washington Hotel stood, and the Whig Office battery was located, came from this battery. Photo of China Street, the Whig office battery was located on this street, and the Washington Hotel was a Confederate hospital. This gives a good idea of the Vicksburg hills. The river is just out of sight of the lower bottom of photograph

So the cannon in front of the old drug store, listed as 9" Dahlgren being a "C.S.A. Naval gun" is really a Federal gun out of the Lum House battery?