Vicksburg Bluffs

[Forrest]

www.nps.gov/vick or by calling 601-636-0583. They will know how to contact Terry Winschel

Forrest: You have already completed a lot of shoe leather research call him now and tell him of your pending trip and he can guide you to further info, photos and maps you desire to prep for your trip. Fascinating, keep us posted.

....

Forrest: sounds like you have a mission and plenty of time to prep before your 3000 mile trek.

Warning this is all quicksand....BGB

Thanks-will do. Yes, definitely on a mission. I'm just trying to get my ducks lined up prior to the trip, which may or may not occur this year.

 

[Vicksburger]

Thanks-will do. Yes, definitely on a mission. I'm just trying to get my ducks lined up prior to the trip, which may or may not occur this year.

Forrest, if you do get to Vicksburg, you might see if you can ascertain whether the Confederate Salient Work on Hall's Ferry Road is still there or not, if it interests you. There is a good thread where Alan Polk ( via Gen. Parker Hills) and 1st MS Arty contributed some pictures, the name of the thread is: "Vicksburg Photos," started in 2013. Terry Winschell says it is not there, but I think it is just grown up in trees and brush. It is owned by the City of Vicksburg and now neglected.

 

[Forrest]

It all interests me! The issue is going to be time - I have to check out locations of three Vicksburg batteries and visit a library in another state. Everything else is gravy. I just wish this bug had hit me when I lived in Georgia.

 

[Forrest]

I just found a very nice Vicksburg engraving at the NYPL site. Here is a section of it that shows the Train Depot, with the Catholic Church and the Castle behind it. I like the fact that the Depot is correctly drawn as four sections and even has the correct number of windows in each. In addition, it shows the house below the Depot that had the Columbiad just below it. Interestingly, it shows two tall hills with houses to the left-center - one is Sky Parlour.
Really beautiful engraving!

 

[BlueGrayBlood]

Forrest:
Found this photo of Vicksburg from 1904 in my files, don't know yet where I originally found it, LOC ?

It gives some perspective to Bluffs elevation, but the River had already changed.

 

[Forrest]

The loc has a series of gigantic photos from this shoot.

Regarding the bluffs, photos that show the bluffs always show them at about the height as this picture. My guess is that the water didn't get much lower and the 100+ feet that we read about is referring to the highest areas in the city (such as Sky Parlor Hill and the Courthouse). The bluffs shown in this picture would still be sufficiently high to prevent landing infantry.

 

[Vicksburger]

I just found a very nice Vicksburg engraving at the NYPL site. Here is a section of it that shows the Train Depot, with the Catholic Church and the Castle behind it. I like the fact that the Depot is correctly drawn as four sections and even has the correct number of windows in each. In addition, it shows the house below the Depot that had the Columbiad just below it. Interestingly, it shows two tall hills with houses to the left-center - one is Sky Parlour.
Really beautiful engraving!

View attachment 91277

Very neat find!

 

[Tompre]

it appears to be some sort of communications tower...
View attachment 89904 View attachment 89905 View attachment 89906

It is the City of Vicksburg communication tower

 

[Tompre]

Interesting because this is the same area I looked for, in 2012, the "Rock House" where Grant visited Pemberton after the surrender. Terry Winschel said the actual house is gone, not surprising, but that the house that stands on it's spot was built using some architectural features/ parts of the old Rock House. It was on old Openwood road, now MLK Drive, and he gave me directions. But I never found what he was referring to, I never got out to ask directions, but I never guessed that I was near old Federal Battery Sherman! This has been an enlightening thread!

Battery Sherman was on the hill beside the Rock House. There is a water tower on it now.

 

[Tompre]

This is my best attempt at guesstimating where the rifle pits, etc, were located for the 'Depot Battery'. I have enhanced a map of the works which doesn't show the houses as well as other maps, but otherwise seems fairly accurate. On the other hand, I don't know how accurate their mapping of the rifle pits and cannon emplacement is. I do know that there should be a house just above the circle at the far right, which represents where the 10" Columbiad was located. That house is also shown in the photograph. So I know that part is correct, but that's about it!

The Depot itself is a very odd building - the ground was sloped right up to the point where I have Madison terminating, then you had the railroad yard which was flat, then it sloped up again to Washington Street. I am fairly sure that the building just behind the word 'Oak' is the mostly-destroyed building shown in the back view photo of the Depot that is shown in Championhilz' book, and shown in the map to the right, which portrays it inaccurately. You can sort of see (perhaps it is my imagination) the boards angling up and to the left from the roof. Grant's Headquarters is on the hill at the extreme right, which is also where the battery containing 'Whistling Dick' was located.

Any help in clarifying this would be greatly appreciated.

View attachment 90956

The Depot battery was located in the area where the Vicksburg convention center is now. I will take a picture of It and post it.That's not Grant' s headquarters, that's Judge Marshall's house. Grant stayed at the Lum home which was torn down and a battery was built on the site. The Dahlgren cannon on Washington Street, which is located next to where the Washington Hotel stood, and the Whig Office battery was located, came from this battery. Photo of China Street, the Whig office battery was located on this street, and the Washington Hotel was a Confederate hospital. This gives a good idea of the Vicksburg hills. The river is just out of sight of the lower bottom of photograph

 

[Tompre]

This is my best attempt at guesstimating where the rifle pits, etc, were located for the 'Depot Battery'. I have enhanced a map of the works which doesn't show the houses as well as other maps, but otherwise seems fairly accurate. On the other hand, I don't know how accurate their mapping of the rifle pits and cannon emplacement is. I do know that there should be a house just above the circle at the far right, which represents where the 10" Columbiad was located. That house is also shown in the photograph. So I know that part is correct, but that's about it!

The Depot itself is a very odd building - the ground was sloped right up to the point where I have Madison terminating, then you had the railroad yard which was flat, then it sloped up again to Washington Street. I am fairly sure that the building just behind the word 'Oak' is the mostly-destroyed building shown in the back view photo of the Depot that is shown in Championhilz' book, and shown in the map to the right, which portrays it inaccurately. You can sort of see (perhaps it is my imagination) the boards angling up and to the left from the roof. Grant's Headquarters is on the hill at the extreme right, which is also where the battery containing 'Whistling Dick' was located.

Any help in clarifying this would be greatly appreciated.

View attachment 90956

here is a wartime photo of the Depot.
Expired Image Removed

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

The Depot battery was located in the area where the Vicksburg convention center is now. I will take a picture of It and post it.That's not Grant' s headquarters, that's Judge Marshall's house. Grant stayed at the Lum home which was torn down and a battery was built on the site. The Dahlgren cannon on Washington Street, which is located next to where the Washington Hotel stood, and the Whig Office battery was located, came from this battery. Photo of China Street, the Whig office battery was located on this street, and the Washington Hotel was a Confederate hospital. This gives a good idea of the Vicksburg hills. The river is just out of sight of the lower end of photograph

Welcome to CivilWarTalk.
I'm glad we have another Vicksburger on board.
Thanks for posting some great information !

 

[Tompre]

Welcome to CivilWarTalk.
I'm glad we have another Vicksburger on board.
Thanks for posting some great information !

Thank you, we have a Facebook site called Vicksburg MS, we discuss history and other things that pertain to Vicksburg there, and we have some good photographers who post great pictures of Vicksburg. Everyone is welcome to join us.

 

[Vicksburger]

The Depot battery was located in the area where the Vicksburg convention center is now. I will take a picture of It and post it.That's not Grant' s headquarters, that's Judge Marshall's house. Grant stayed at the Lum home which was torn down and a battery was built on the site. The Dahlgren cannon on Washington Street, which is located next to where the Washington Hotel stood, and the Whig Office battery was located, came from this battery. Photo of China Street, the Whig office battery was located on this street, and the Washington Hotel was a Confederate hospital. This gives a good idea of the Vicksburg hills. The river is just out of sight of the lower bottom of photograph

Thanks Tompre. Yes good to have a real Vicksburger to help with questions. So if I understand, the Dahlgren displayed came from the Whig Office battery?
Also, slightly off topic, but maybe you can answer: Is the Salient Work on Halls Ferry road still there? Hidden by brush/trees? The photo posted below shows the Salient work and Lauman's third parallel and approach trench. There was at one time ( 1900 or so) (apparently) a big marker for the salient work, not there now (?) Thanks for any input.

 

[Forrest]

The Depot battery was located in the area where the Vicksburg convention center is now. I will take a picture of It and post it.That's not Grant' s headquarters, that's Judge Marshall's house. Grant stayed at the Lum home which was torn down and a battery was built on the site. The Dahlgren cannon on Washington Street, which is located next to where the Washington Hotel stood, and the Whig Office battery was located, came from this battery. Photo of China Street, the Whig office battery was located on this street, and the Washington Hotel was a Confederate hospital. This gives a good idea of the Vicksburg hills. The river is just out of sight of the lower bottom of photograph

Why do you think the Depot Battery was over a block further north than where the NPS, period maps and historians generally agree that it was located (Pearl and Depot St. where there is currently a parking lot). Not saying that you are wrong - just wondering how you came up with that.

Same for the Whig Office Battery - maps, historians and even a description from the journal of a soldier who was physically in that battery during the siege, have it located at the base of Washington, not China.

Same for Grant's headquarters - I didn't make up that location.

Same with the Railroad battery and Whistling Dick - historians and maps have that battery located further north than Belmont and nothing I've found indicates that it was moved to the rear, repaired and handed over to the Yankees;quite to the contrary, most believe that it was hauled away by Confederates and dumped in the river the night of July 3. There is an account of this in Championhilz' book.

Please explain why your locations are different from what the maps and historians have.

Also, I HATE getting into arguments on these forums, and will bow out if this turns into one;however, you quoted me saying that basically everything I've researched is incorrect, so I felt that for the sake of those following the thread that I started, I should rebut.

 

[Forrest]

here is a wartime photo of the Depot.
Expired Image Removed

Thanks. Yes, that's the photo I posted previously from Championhilz' book. I believe he got it from the loc, but I have been unable to find a hi-res copy.

 

[Tompre]

Sorry didn't mean to upset you, but I'm from Vicksburg

Why do you think the Depot Battery was over a block further north than where the NPS, period maps and historians generally agree that it was located (Pearl and Depot St. where there is currently a parking lot). Not saying that you are wrong - just wondering how you came up with that.

Same for the Whig Office Battery - maps, historians and even a description from the journal of a soldier who was physically in that battery during the siege, have it located at the base of Washington, not China.

Same for Grant's headquarters - I didn't make up that location.

Same with the Railroad battery and Whistling Dick - historians and maps have that battery located further north than Belmont and nothing I've found indicates that it was moved to the rear, repaired and handed over to the Yankees;quite to the contrary, most believe that it was hauled away by Confederates and dumped in the river the night of July 3. There is an account of this in Championhilz' book.

Please explain why your locations are different from what the maps and historians have.

Also, I HATE getting into arguments on these forums, and will bow out if this turns into one;however, you quoted me saying that basically everything I've researched is incorrect, so I felt that for the sake of those following the thread that I started, I should rebut.

,and I'm a Civil War historian,haveing managed the Grand Gulf Military Park,the southernmost of the Vicksburg defences
and the Port Gibson battlefield. In that capacity I have had access to much more material than most people have. You're right, the Depot battery was in the area of the Convention Center parking lot. Grant stayed in the Lum home, which was located on the east side of Washington Street there is a plaque located there now. There was a large hill located there,and although Grant promised the Lums that the home would be alright,the occupation forces tore it down and built a battery on the site. There is no pictures of it, only a drawing. The information for Whistling Dick came from Col Higgins report from the ORs here is his exact words:
On the 28th, the 18-pounder rifled gun was sent to the rear lines, in charge of Capt. L. B. Haynes' company (E), First Regiment Louisiana Artillery.
The Whig Office was located on China Street, I posted a picture of that street.

 

[Tompre]

Thanks Tompre. Yes good to have a real Vicksburger to help with questions. So if I understand, the Dahlgren displayed came from the Whig Office battery?
Also, slightly off topic, but maybe you can answer: Is the Salient Work on Halls Ferry road still there? Hidden by brush/trees? The photo posted below shows the Salient work and Lauman's third parallel and approach trench. There was at one time ( 1900 or so) (apparently) a big marker for the salient work, not there now (?) Thanks for any input.View attachment 92587

Only the eastern wall is still there,the City has done a lot of work there in the past few years,destroying even more of the salient works.But the approach trench and the parellels are still there and in excellent condition. I will take a photo before it grows up too bad.

 

[Tompre]

Don't know if y'all have seen this or not,but I'm posting a link to the river batteries at Vicksburg.http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth284661/m1/1/zoom/

 

[Tompre]

Sorry didn't mean to upset you, but I'm from Vicksburg
,and I'm a Civil War historian,haveing managed the Grand Gulf Military Park,the southernmost of the Vicksburg defences
and the Port Gibson battlefield. In that capacity I have had access to much more material than most people have. You're right, the Depot battery was in the area of the Convention Center parking lot. Grant stayed in the Lum home, which was located on the east side of Washington Street there is a plaque located there now. There was a large hill located there,and although Grant promised the Lums that the home would be alright,the occupation forces tore it down and built a battery on the site. There is no pictures of it, only a drawing. The information for Whistling Dick came from Col Higgins report from the ORs here is his exact words:
On the 28th, the 18-pounder rifled gun was sent to the rear lines, in charge of Capt. L. B. Haynes' company (E), First Regiment Louisiana Artillery.
The Whig Office was located on China Street, I posted a picture of that street.

here is a portion of one of the maps that was used in the determination of the layout of the Park. Not a good photograph,but you can make out on the lower part where it reads rifled 18 pounder, whistling dick. This is where it was moved after being repaired.