Unmarked Whitneys

[Story]

From the 1940 BANNERMAN catalog. Note the bit about 'some by private contractors'.

 

[Package4]

It would be interesting to see if his "Manton" marked pieces had the same coating on inside of lock which I've never seen in my 60+ item collection of 1812-1864 muskets and rifled muskets.

Possibly the Plymouth locks had a special type coating since the were intended for sea service?

 

[BBurkett]

Possibly the Plymouth locks had a special type coating since the were intended for sea service?

I was talking to Tim Prince and he wondered if it was a "smoke type" film to check for fittment and clearance issues. I told him it's more of like a 1860's truck bed liner coating. He agreed to my postulate if the Manton muskets had this coating it would show a clear connection to Whitney and disprove the Bannerman assembled from parts theory that's been floating around. I'm currently waiting for dealer Jeff Jones to get one out of his collection and examine the lock internals.

 

[BBurkett]

From the 1940 BANNERMAN catalog. Note the bit about 'some by private contractors'.
View attachment 411078

I don't doubt this one bit, Story. I'm aware of his sales of surplus. My contention IS, if the parts needed to assemble these guns don't "gauge", why would you pay a worker to assemble something and try to make things fit if they were being sold for pennies on a dollar when you had literally THOUSANDS of muskets that had interchangeability. Seems like a money losing proposition from a business standpoint, IMHO.
Re: the possibility of them being GAR or parade rifles. That could be true but I have yet to see one with a placard attached or evidence of tinning, which a lot of Parade guns were. All I'm trying to do is to see if there's a further link to Whitney that others might have not explored.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Here are 2 different locks from 2 different examples

What sort of finish you think this blue is?

These locks were not originally blued, but I have seen that over-all dull blue on the inside of some trapdoor springfield locks.

 

[Story]

I don't doubt this one bit, Story. I'm aware of his sales of surplus. My contention IS, if the parts needed to assemble these guns don't "gauge", why would you pay a worker to assemble something and try to make things fit if they were being sold for pennies on a dollar when you had literally THOUSANDS of muskets that had interchangeability. Seems like a money losing proposition from a business standpoint, IMHO.

Mind you, that's the 1940 catalog. BANNERMAN may have long been sold out of 'seconds'. While I think @Jeff in Ohio is spot on about the home assembly line of Larry, his brother Daryl and his other brother Daryl, I wouldn't put it past BANNERMAN to put **** out for sale.

If you're familiar with the current surplus market, people have paid good money for garbage being swept out of Ethiopian warehouses.

 

[BBurkett]

What sort of finish you think this blue is?

These locks were not originally blued, but I have seen that over-all dull blue on the inside of some trapdoor springfield locks.

This isn't a blue at all. It's a textured black. Expand the pictures a little. I'll try to get a better HDR pic

 

[BBurkett]

Mind you, that's the 1940 catalog. BANNERMAN may have long been sold out of 'seconds'. While I think @Jeff in Ohio is spot on about the home assembly line of Larry, his brother Daryl and his other brother Daryl, I wouldn't put it past BANNERMAN to put **** out for sale.

If you're familiar with the current surplus market, people have paid good money for garbage being swept out of Ethiopian warehouses.

I looked again at the Bannerman flyer. It said these pieces were rusty from storage. These 3 rifles in my possession are clean as a whistle, no pitting and the bores are mirror sharp unlike what the advertisement states.

 

[Story]

I looked again at the Bannerman flyer. It said these pieces were rusty from storage. These 3 rifles in my possession are clean as a whistle, no pitting and the bores are mirror sharp unlike what the advertisement states.

You looked at the page from the 1940 Bannerman Catalog. 80 years after the war is a good long time to gather rust, and Bannerman sold many many many rifles over that period of time. No doubt some of them were less rusty.

Also, if you look at the $10 option to the right it'll mention 'used' but not rusty.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

If you're familiar with the current surplus market, people have paid good money for garbage being swept out of Ethiopian warehouses.

Hey there's some guns there that just ain't around in the US....

But don't forget the "Nepalese Cache" IMA is still selling. Lots of those gun are what many would call junk, but they make great restoration projects for those that love doing such things.

 

[Story]

Hey there's some guns there that just ain't around in the US....

But don't forget the "Nepalese Cache" IMA is still selling. Lots of those gun are what many would call junk, but they make great restoration projects for those that love doing such things.

I'm not sure where the tipping point was in the American gun market from consumers to collectors, but the pre-WW2 BANNERMAN offerings included a ton of (for the time, ridiculously expensive) percussion and flintlock collectables.

I'd hazard that for the first 40 years or so after the Civil War, BANNERMAN was selling to consumers.

The firm's real, unabridged, primary sourced, unfiltered history would probably make for some engrossing reading. https://bannermancastle.org/history/

 

[BBurkett]

Hey there's some guns there that just ain't around in the US....

But don't forget the "Nepalese Cache" IMA is still selling. Lots of those gun are what many would call junk, but they make great restoration projects for those that love doing such things.

I caught a guy at the Richmond relic show trying to pass off a Nepalese "P'53" as a battlefield pickup. I told him the only place that was a pickup was either in Nepal or Khyber Pass. He didn't get it.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

This isn't a blue at all. It's a textured black. Expand the pictures a little. I'll try to get a better HDR pic

Old processes could produce a "black" colored finish.

I caught a guy at the Richmond relic show trying to pass off a Nepalese "P'53" as a battlefield pickup. I told him the only place that was a pickup was either in Nepal or Khyber Pass. He didn't get it.

You'll see careful sellers describing these arms as 'civil war era." Since I am a long time fan of the novels about Sir Harry Flashman, one of perhaps two English survivors of the abandonment of Afghanistan by the British Army by way of a march down the Kyhber Pass during the winter of 1842, I am interested in these Nepalese guns (realizing these were made later than the 1842 date of this massacre of the British Army)

 

[Package4]

I don't doubt this one bit, Story. I'm aware of his sales of surplus. My contention IS, if the parts needed to assemble these guns don't "gauge", why would you pay a worker to assemble something and try to make things fit if they were being sold for pennies on a dollar when you had literally THOUSANDS of muskets that had interchangeability. Seems like a money losing proposition from a business standpoint, IMHO.
Re: the possibility of them being GAR or parade rifles. That could be true but I have yet to see one with a placard attached or evidence of tinning, which a lot of Parade guns were. All I'm trying to do is to see if there's a further link to Whitney that others might have not explored.

Simply put, veterans purchased muskets in mass for various reunions and GAR parades, most of these came from Bannerman and Stokes Kirk. These were weapons that went home after purchase and not stored in a GAR Hall.

Get in touch with Yale and find out where the 1864 guns went, quit messing with collectors and supposition. I still contend that the goop on the inside of the lock was for sea service and these were Plymouth rejects. 1864 no states or governments needed rejects, Colt was having issues finding homes for perfectly good inspected and interchangeable muskets. There are so many 1864 perfectly conditioned Colts around today it's incredible; I have a completely unfired one with grease still in the nipple.

Since you have three of these, there is no doubt you want to justify what you paid, but sometimes you just can't fit that square peg into the round hole. I learned the hard way many years ago and jettisoned pieces that I just knew had a tremendous story, not......

 

[Package4]

I looked again at the Bannerman flyer. It said these pieces were rusty from storage. These 3 rifles in my possession are clean as a whistle, no pitting and the bores are mirror sharp unlike what the advertisement states.

In the 1927 Bannerman's catalog that I have on my shelf, a quick glance shows no fewer than 4 different references to Whitney. Two are different locks they supply for Whitneys, and the other two are Whitney percussion weapons. There is ample proof that Bannerman bought from Whitney. The earlier catalogs might even show these identical rifles.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Colt was having issues finding homes for perfectly good inspected and interchangeable muskets. There are so many 1864 perfectly conditioned Colts around today it's incredible; I have a completely unfired one with grease still in the nipple.

Six of those came out of a old collection a year or two ago unfired and in new condition, and a friend of mine grabbed on for his museum. They are beautiful to behold.

I'm also leaning toward the waterproofing theory...

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I caught a guy at the Richmond relic show trying to pass off a Nepalese "P'53" as a battlefield pickup. I told him the only place that was a pickup was either in Nepal or Khyber Pass. He didn't get it.

I've actually been debating getting one of those or a Brunswick to restore just for the heck of it. An Enfield restored would be handy as a loaner at parades for the SCV color guard I'm in. If one of the theories on these M1861's is true I'd be in the footsteps of the GAR and UCV.

IMA is careful to say "Civil War Era" but many, many uneducated people get taken in. I've yet to see someone agree with they're theory on the interesting slant breech Sharps that came out of Nepal being Confederate though.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I've actually been debating getting one of those or a Brunswick to restore just for the heck of it. An Enfield restored would be handy as a loaner at parades for the SCV color guard I'm in. If one of the theories on these M1861's is true I'd be in the footsteps of the GAR and UCV.

IMA is careful to say "Civil War Era" but many, many uneducated people get taken in. I've yet to see someone agree with they're theory on the interesting slant breech Sharps that came out of Nepal being Confederate though.

Here is an interesting link to an on line article on History Net discussing the long use by the British of the Model 1852 Sharps in India and on the Northwest Frontier aka Afghan border, an area where native craftsman long made copies of every type of firearm brought to them by capture or trade, up to and including the 40mm Bofors anti-aircraft gun! Note that those Nepal cache "sharps" are copies of the early slant breech Sharps (that would include the Model 1852s of the British).

https://www.historynet.com/the-sharps-carbine-became-a-yankee-breechloader-in-redcoat-dress.htm

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Here is an interesting link to an on line article on History Net discussing the long use by the British of the Model 1852 Sharps in India and on the Northwest Frontier aka Afghan border, an area where native craftsman long made copies of every type of firearm brought to them by capture or trade, up to and including the 40mm Bofors anti-aircraft gun! Note that those Nepal cache "sharps" are copies of the early slant breech Sharps (that would include the Model 1852s of the British).

https://www.historynet.com/the-sharps-carbine-became-a-yankee-breechloader-in-redcoat-dress.htm

They didn't copy the British Contract oddballs, that's for sure.

 

[BBurkett]

Two out of the three have known Whitney sights