Union vs CSA Guerrilla

[M.Warren]

When you say 13th do you mean Bradford's which later became the 14th? I'm researching them at the moment, interested in what you find out.

I was referring to the 13th Tn Cav. Union. I haven't finished the entire history of the unit yet. Here's a link to it if you're interested, Allie. Its free on Google Books at the moment.


https://books.google.com/books?id=f...NVifKEjuyA72Cik55f0&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[southern blue]

Have you ever heard of the Shelton Laurel Massacre in NC?

 

[M.Warren]

Have you ever heard of the Shelton Laurel Massacre in NC?

No I hadn't heard of this instance. Thanks for the reading material!

 

[Allie]

I was referring to the 13th Tn Cav. Union. I haven't finished the entire history of the unit yet. Here's a link to it if you're interested, Allie. Its free on Google Books at the moment.


https://books.google.com/books?id=f...NVifKEjuyA72Cik55f0&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

Yeah, there were two. Bradford's was originally the 13th and then renumbered as the 14th. Yours are the other ones.

 

[East Tennessee Roots]

I was referring to the 13th Tn Cav. Union. I haven't finished the entire history of the unit yet. Here's a link to it if you're interested, Allie. Its free on Google Books at the moment.


https://books.google.com/books?id=f...NVifKEjuyA72Cik55f0&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1626191123/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/article/112378/marauding-mountain-men

 

[leftyhunter]

Not all of the ant-Confederate resistance to the CSA govt consisted of guerrilla warfare. In Thomas County, Ga February 1864 pro Union men held an anti-war meeting and beat back an assault by pro Confederates. That same month in Irwin County, Ga a large number of pro Union men and deserters from the CSA held an anti-war meeting in Irwinville callif for the surrender of the Confederacy. When a Confederate militia captain tried to break it up long time Unionist Willis Bone knocked him down with a musket and led three cheers for Abraham Lincoln. From "Bitterly Divided" p.236-237.
Leftyhunter

 

[M.Warren]

Not all of the ant-Confederate resistance to the CSA govt consisted of guerrilla warfare. In Thomas County, Ga February 1864 pro Union men held an anti-war meeting and beat back an assault by pro Confederates. That same month in Irwin County, Ga a large number of pro Union men and deserters from the CSA held an anti-war meeting in Irwinville callif for the surrender of the Confederacy. When a Confederate militia captain tried to break it up long time Unionist Willis Bone knocked him down with a musket and led three cheers for Abraham Lincoln. From "Bitterly Divided" p.236-237.
Leftyhunter

True. Many of them started off as guerrilla's though and then formed regular Union units like the 13th TN. Cav. They began by burning bridges in Eastern TN to disrupt supply and transportation but ended up being a well trained regular Union reg. responsible for the killing of Gen. Morgan. Some say he was shot in the back while unarmed, others say he had a revolver and was firing as he ran through a vineyard then down the street. I think the soldier that shot him was Pvt. Andrew Campbell of Co. G. 13 TN. Cav.

 

[M.Warren]

Just a note. Pvt. Campbell was first promoted to Sgt. in the field, then Lt. I believe by order of Gov. Johnson for his actions in the killing of Gen. Morgan.

 

[M.Warren]

During this time as mentioned before ideals and trust were so confused here in WNC and ETN that most didn't know up from down and still really don't. In the history of the 13th TN Cav. my family members William and Orpha Johnson were mentioned as kind loyal Unionists, but in real life I know they were actually Southern leaning but anti war.(my Grandmother who was a Johnson before she married and their GGranddaughter told me this) They just didn't want problems, war, or to see their friends and neighbors hurt or killed. In other histories written on the Johnson county area or then referred to as Taylorsville, during the time list another side of my family, the Warren's as being supporters of the South but also mention that they were kind peaceful people and hid young Southern men from conscription(specifically a man named Main and our families are still good friends to this day) even though that side of my family was at one time tasked by the Confederate gov. to enforce conscription in the same area.(7th Battalion NC Cav.) There is also an instance in that Reg. history, of 3 men from this unit, Co. A or F, Brothers, who spoke up for a neighbor at Fish Springs (Now Butler) TN, and kept him from being shot or hanged, saying he was a good peaceful man and shouldn't be killed. The only 3 men who were Brothers in Co. A or F were my Grandfather and his Brothers Fredrick and Cornelius Warren. In conclusion, the more I study this area of the war the more confused I get and the less I feel like I know. I think confining any group by one category is far from fair. I've been guilty of it in the past myself but tend to stray as far from it as possible now.

 

[leftyhunter]

Their is a good quick overall summery of guerrilla warfare on both sides in Ga georigiaencyllopedia.org/articles. By November 1863 the Confederate Army had to conduct a huge seep in many Ga counties to fight guerrillas and round up deserters. Sherman burned down much of Cassville, Ga in retaliation for raids by CSA guerrillas.
Leftyhunter

 

[M.Warren]

Their is a good quick overall summery of guerrilla warfare on both sides in Ga georigiaencyllopedia.org/articles. By November 1863 the Confederate Army had to conduct a huge seep in many Ga counties to fight guerrillas and round up deserters. Sherman burned down much of Cassville, Ga in retaliation for raids by CSA guerrillas.
Leftyhunter

Many of the deserters and guerrilla's from this area were said to be from GA too. I'm thinking those men had just had enough or were never interested in the war to start with. It seems many enlisted to avoid conscription if nothing else and by 64 had seen enough and were just as willing to risk being shot for desertion as by a Union soldier. I don't hold it against any of them personally. The more I think about it the less I feel like I know what I might have done.. Neither was a good choice to be honest. I also read that Johnston I believe ordered that men not be shot for desertion by late 64 due to the vast number of men ready to get home and check on their families knowing that Sherman and company were scattered though out NC and the rest of the South.

 

[leftyhunter]

Many of the deserters and guerrilla's from this area were said to be from GA too. I'm thinking those men had just had enough or were never interested in the war to start with. It seems many enlisted to avoid conscription if nothing else and by 64 had seen enough and were just as willing to risk being shot for desertion as by a Union soldier. I don't hold it against any of them personally. The more I think about it the less I feel like I know what I might have done.. Neither was a good choice to be honest. I also read that Johnston I believe ordered that men not be shot for desertion by late 64 due to the vast number of men ready to get home and check on their families knowing that Sherman and company were scattered though out NC and the rest of the South.

You raise a good point what does one do when they don't want to fight for one or both sides. When I was a kid guys who didn't want to serve in Vietnam went to Canada or Sweden because they could be granted temporary refuge status. If one lived in the North during the CW one could and many did sneak off to Canada and just try to blend in. In the 80's I knew some Iranians that did not want to fight in the Iran-Iraq war so they crossed the Turkish border at great risk and where able to get refugee status in the US. If on lived in the deep South and did not want to join or be conscripted in the CSA and if they could not buy an exemption they had to either be mossbacks, freelance guerrillas , Unionist guerrillas or join the Union Army when they could has those who joined the 2nd Fl and 1st and 2nd Nc Mounted US Infantry did. If their was a friendly country that bordered the South they would of done so. Mexico was not a great choice yes plenty of pretty girls put plenty of hostile French soldiers and Mexican guerrillas fighting them. No one here really knows what they would of done . We only know what many did do.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Many of the deserters and guerrilla's from this area were said to be from GA too. I'm thinking those men had just had enough or were never interested in the war to start with. It seems many enlisted to avoid conscription if nothing else and by 64 had seen enough and were just as willing to risk being shot for desertion as by a Union soldier. I don't hold it against any of them personally. The more I think about it the less I feel like I know what I might have done.. Neither was a good choice to be honest. I also read that Johnston I believe ordered that men not be shot for desertion by late 64 due to the vast number of men ready to get home and check on their families knowing that Sherman and company were scattered though out NC and the rest of the South.

From what I gather much of rural Ga was a huge mess. From p.186 By late 1862 hundreds of CSA deserters where joining Torie bands in Nc and Ga just as they had been doing in Al. Unions guerrilla groups of up to 300 men roamed the Northern Ga hill country. Rounding up deserters often created popular backlash's .
One intresting CSA deserters was John P. Gatewood who deserted froma Tn cavalry regiment Gatewood also known has "the redhaired beast from Georia" led 50 to 100 men who plundered and killed any Unionist they could find. Gov. Jor Brown of Ga had to create a new militia (I assume the author means the Ga State Militia to guard residents from Confederate Partisan Rangers who often stole from the locals.
P.252-256 of the "Savage Conflict" Their was also Unionist guerrilla activity in central and southern Ga one Ga newspaper in Nov 1863 wrote "we are fighting each other harder then we ever fought the enemy". By the end of 1863 their wher up to 1,500 deserters in the Okefenokee Swamp who committed many crimes. When Sherman invaded Ga their where reports of escaped slaves that formed bands of "pilfering and plundering'"
Sherman did encounter CSA guerrillas but by severe retaliation , using a lot of troops to guard his lines and having large reserves of supplies his men got to where they needed to go.
P.254 General and Chief Halleck told Sherman "we have tried the kid glove policy long enough". At the same time Halleck Gen. David Hunter of "uselessly destroying"homes in Va. Unionist scouts often shot captured CSA guerrillas.
It appears that guerrilla war in the CW was messy and quite similar be it in Mo or any Confederate state.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

True. Many of them started off as guerrilla's though and then formed regular Union units like the 13th TN. Cav. They began by burning bridges in Eastern TN to disrupt supply and transportation but ended up being a well trained regular Union reg. responsible for the killing of Gen. Morgan. Some say he was shot in the back while unarmed, others say he had a revolver and was firing as he ran through a vineyard then down the street. I think the soldier that shot him was Pvt. Andrew Campbell of Co. G. 13 TN. Cav.

One difference between Union and CSA guerrillas is that Unionist guerrillas and civilians didn't fear the Confederate Navy.Not so for the Confederates. Admiral Farragut shelled both Baton Rouge and Donaldsville, La in retaliation for guerrilla attacks. The Gov of La had to disband CSA Partisan Rangers just has did the Gov of Ga because they robbed Confederate folks as bad has the Unionists and or freelance bandits did. Source jcs-group-com/military/war1861guerrilla. That's a great little article lots of info on guerrilla warfare during the CW.
Ledftyhunter

 

[M.Warren]

One difference between Union and CSA guerrillas is that Unionist guerrillas and civilians didn't fear the Confederate Navy.Not so for the Confederates. Admiral Farragut shelled both Baton Rouge and Donaldsville, La in retaliation for guerrilla attacks. The Gov of La had to disband CSA Partisan Rangers just has did the Gov of Ga because they robbed Confederate folks as bad has the Unionists and or freelance bandits did. Source jcs-group-com/military/war1861guerrilla. That's a great little article lots of info on guerrilla warfare during the CW.
Ledftyhunter

True but Unionist guerrillas didn't have to fear any navy. Most of them were too far inland for a navy to have any effect. They feared homeguard and militia, along with regular army units and especially cavalry. They also had to fear loyal CSA citizens that would throw them under the bus the first chance they got. Both had their worries for sure.

 

[leftyhunter]

True but Unionist guerrillas didn't have to fear any navy. Most of them were too far inland for a navy to have any effect. They feared homeguard and militia, along with regular army units and especially cavalry. They also had to fear loyal CSA citizens that would throw them under the bus the first chance they got. Both had their worries for sure.

I did a little research on the St.Marys Parish massacre. I found this instead a book"American Civil War Guerrilla Tactics Sean McLaghlan Osprey Press ( p.20) The Gov of Fl in 1864 was so scared of Unionist Guerrillas he would not leave Tallahassee. The Fl militia was not up to the task of defeating guerrillas near Gainsville so a regular conventional CSA regiment was sent in. After they left a force of 500 deserters and guerrillas threatened Gainsville.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Has a general rule Unionist guerrillas where poorer then CSA guerrillas.
"A profile of about one hundred Unionist and secessionist guerrillas reveals important similarities. Partisans on both sides tended to be in their late thirties ,though Unionists were slightly younger. The majority of both camps were married, had two or more children, and owned either a farm or business But Unionist and secessionist guerrillas were divided by occupation and wealth. The majority of Unionists were small farmers , but artisans and farm laborers were well represented. Conversely ,almost all Confederate bushwackers who could be clearly identified were farmers with substantial
land holdings. Their average amount of real property was three times that of loyalists and their average personal property holdings were twice as great. The sample is small enough that these conclusions should be used with cation, but they do suggest that Confederate partisans were more likely to come from the ranks of the wealthy.
"War at every Door Partisan Politics & guerrilla warfare in East Tennessee 1860-1869 Noel Fisher The University of North Carolina Press p.130
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

Has a general rule Unionist guerrillas where poorer then CSA guerrillas.
"A profile of about one hundred Unionist and secessionist guerrillas reveals important similarities. Partisans on both sides tended to be in their late thirties ,though Unionists were slightly younger. The majority of both camps were married, had two or more children, and owned either a farm or business But Unionist and secessionist guerrillas were divided by occupation and wealth. The majority of Unionists were small farmers , but artisans and farm laborers were well represented. Conversely ,almost all Confederate bushwackers who could be clearly identified were farmers with substantial
land holdings. Their average amount of real property was three times that of loyalists and their average personal property holdings were twice as great. The sample is small enough that these conclusions should be used with cation, but they do suggest that Confederate partisans were more likely to come from the ranks of the wealthy.
"War at every Door Partisan Politics & guerrilla warfare in East Tennessee 1860-1869 Noel Fisher The University of North Carolina Press p.130
Leftyhunter

I went to graduate school, during the 1960s, at Appalachian State U. It was located in Watauga County in the mountains of northwestern North Carolina. I had a professor who was a native of the county. Dr. Yoder appeared to be in his 60s and on, one occasion mentioned having remembered in his youth veterans from both sides and said pretty much what your article said. He said the Confederates tended to live in or near the county seat of Boone or in or near the small communities of the county and that they were better educated and more prosperous than most of the unionists who he said tended to live farther back in the mountain 'hollows.' He didn't describe most of the unionists as hillbillies, but that was the impression that I got.

 

[leftyhunter]

I went to graduate school, during the 1960s, at Appalachian State U. It was located in Watauga County in the mountains of northwestern North Carolina. I had a professor who was a native of the county. Dr. Yoder appeared to be in his 60s and on, one occasion mentioned having remembered in his youth veterans from both sides and said pretty much what your article said. He said the Confederates tended to live in or near the county seat of Boone or in or near the small communities of the county and that they were better educated and more prosperous than most of the unionists who he said tended to live farther back in the mountain 'hollows.' He didn't describe most of the unionists as hillbillies, but that was the impression that I got.

Sounds right. Based on my readings most Unionists were not connected to slave owners nor liked them very much since the slave owners looked down on them. Many poor Southerners would have been more then willing to sit the war out but for the Confederate Conscription Act of 1862.
Major exceptions to the above.
Leftyhunter

 

[Borderruffian]

Has we know both sides actively used guerrilla warfare during the CW. There are differences how ever.
For the purpose of discussion a guerrilla does not wear a uniform or has was often the case in Mo wore captured enemy uniforms. Therefore cavalry raiders such has Morgan, Marmaduke and Shelpy do not count has guerrillas has long has they are in uniform.
Arguably the CSA had the most guerrillas vs the Union mostly in but by no means limited to Mo. I have not read any figure that gives a round number estimate of X amount of CSA guerrillas vs Y amount of Union troops and militia. Has a general rule it has been argued that it takes ten conventional troops to counter one guerrilla.
Based on the number of Union cavalry and a few Infantry regiments that where assigned to Mo (although often rotated out of Mo) plus the 10k men of the Mo State Militia (the only Union militia that was full time and paid for by the federal govt and fought mostly but not always in Mo) there where quite a few CSA guerrillas or has often referred to has"bushwackers".

Both sides used guerrillas to cooperate with conventional troops. For example Quantril provided an escort for recruiting commands in Mo and in AL Unionist guerrillas from time to time would fight alongside convention Union troops.
The Union could supply at least some guerrillas on a regular basis for example Gen. Dodge in Al could supply Unionist guerrillas and the US Navy supplied Unionist guerrillas in Fl and Ga and even sent an officer to form and lead the 2nd Fl cavalry USV.
Unionist guerrillas where arguably more successful in that by the late summer of 1864 they could sieze and hold areas of the CSA vs CSA guerrillas who could not.
Many guerrillas on both sides became guerrillas due to resentment of being drafted or conscripted by the other side.
Questions.
1. What side really had the most?
2. Which side more effectively supported their guerrillas?
2. Which sides guerrillas ultimately achieved the most good for their side?
Leftyhunter

Uniforms taken from Federals no longer requiring uniforms was really a part of the Partisan supply chain withthe added benefit of giving them a bit of camoflouge if you will. Supplying themselves off the enemy with clothing, boots, saddles and other tack, weapons and ammunition was about their only source of supply as Richmond was in no hurry to make sure that got their 3 B's.
While you don't consider Shelby, Marmaduke, Poindexter and Porter Guerillas, the Union commanders sure did even though they held commissions. Which may have been part of the problem foisted upon later Department Commanders by both Fremont and Old Brains Halleck who pretty much marked the course of war in Missouri by his orders deeming the partisans "outlaws" . The Out State Union forces had come to believe Missouri was filled with slave holders and secesh (thanks Horace Greely,ya twit) and were none to gentle in their dealings with the common folk. Nor was the MSM who were often recruited locally and used their status as federals to settle old scores.

As to which one was worst thats a **** shoot. Partisan warfare does not lend itself to producing saints and angels, No one partisan North or South can be elevated to the status of the saintly warrior. Both Union and Confedrate were fighting because they were very often left little choice,