Discussion Union vs CSA Guerrilla

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Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Thinking this through a little further, let's say that a bunch of teenaged boys under the influence of a bunch of college aged boys, tried to kill a bunch of boys their own age and perhaps a little younger. The thought of them doing an age check first is ridiculous. Think of school ages. 13 would be Seventh grade. By that "metric", there would be a lot of juniors and seniors in high school, and some college aged young men, too, and even a few freshmen among the Missouri guerrillas. The thought that they would search out boys from the seventh grade on up is just silly... (Pardon me, son, what grade are you in school?) But, sure, some young teenagers died at Lawrence, and they died at the hands of other teenaged boys--some of them very young. There is no denying that. It was crazy.

Let's be objective about this and let's not fly off the handle with our emotions or our pre-conceived notions. It was bad. It was VERY bad.
 
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Okay, Lefty! Now, you might be onto something with this post! I agree with you that some of them probably did, although I still think (I can't prove this...it's just a strong hunch) that Anderson's band committed the worst crimes at Lawrence. I'm pretty sure Todd was whipping up his band, too. But, you know, some of those guys who went with Q. were thoroughly put off by the murders. They soon left and joined up with regular forces, such as Shelby's brigade. Others lapped it all up with their blood lust.

What a crazy, bloody, awful time it was to live on either side of the line in the border region.
True but we can't let Quantrill off the hook. Quantrill was quoted by his men and T.J. Stiles did reprint the quote which I posted that Quantrill said to his men to kill and every male thirteen and over. Yes Stiles mentions some of the Confederate guerrillas were put off by his orders.
Yes being a civilian in an insurgency conflict is really dangerous.
If we examined a timeline of U.S. military counterinsurgency campaigns from the Civil War onward the Civil War would not be the worst one in terms of civilan casualties.
No military has ever fought the ideal counterinsurgency conflict regarding treatment of civilians.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Thinking this through a little further, let's say that a bunch of teenaged boys under the influence of a bunch of college aged boys, tried to kill a bunch of boys their own age and perhaps a little younger. The thought of them doing an age check first is ridiculous. Think of school ages. 13 would be Seventh grade. By that "metric", there would be a lot of juniors and seniors in high school, and some college aged young men, too, and even a few freshmen among the Missouri guerrillas. The thought that they would search out boys from the seventh grade on up is just silly... (Pardon me, son, what grade are you in school?) But, sure, some young teenagers died at Lawrence, and they died at the hands of other teenaged boys--some of them very young. There is no denying that. It was crazy.

Let's be objective about this and let's not fly off the handle with our emotions or our pre-conceived notions. It was bad. It was VERY bad.[
Or the guerrillas just shoot any male that at first glance appears to be over 13 which is what happened.
Leftyhunter
 
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Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
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Mar 7, 2014
Quantrill was quoted by his men and T.J. Stiles did reprint the quote which I posted that Quantrill said to his men to kill and every male thirteen and over.
T.J. Stiles didn't mention victim's ages anywhere in his book. I've got the book, too. He quotes Q. as saying: "Kill and you will make no mistake." Then Stiles takes over, not in quotes so these are his thoughts, that they killed every man and boy in sight. Not exactly accurate, but it does effectively convey the outrage of the event.
 

archieclement

Captain
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
False .
General Ewing didn't order his men to kill every male 13 and over in sight.
Leftyhunter
Neither did Quantrill other then in your imagination as others have pointed out.......you must really hate Union since Lyons home guard shot and killed women and children....even babies in mothers arms.

Incidents happen in war, even tragic ones, but to try to pretend an isolated incident represents anything more then what it was.....an isolated incident is a false narrative.

They unfortunately also happen in peacetime when a detective agency is allowed to throw bombs into homes killing 9 yr old's, yet no one is even charged. Fortunately he had brothers to set things right as the law surely didn't...…..
 
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Lusty Murfax

Sergeant
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Feb 18, 2017
Location
Northwest Missouri
Neither did Quantrill other then in your imagination as others have pointed out.......you must really hate Union since Lyons home guard shot and killed women and children....even babies in mothers arms.

Incidents happen in war, even tragic ones, but to try to pretend an isolated incident represents anything more then what it was.....an isolated incident is a false narrative.

They unfortunately also happen in peacetime when a detective agency is allowed to throw bombs into homes killing 9 yr old's, yet no one is even charged. Fortunately he had brothers to set things right as the law surely didn't...…..
Didn't Lyons' "incident" occur before the outbreak of war? At least, before Lyons began his war against the State of Missouri?
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Neither did Quantrill other then in your imagination as others have pointed out.......you must really hate Union since Lyons home guard shot and killed women and children....even babies in mothers arms.

Incidents happen in war, even tragic ones, but to try to pretend an isolated incident represents anything more then what it was.....an isolated incident is a false narrative.

They unfortunately also happen in peacetime when a detective agency is allowed to throw bombs into homes killing 9 yr old's, yet no one is even charged. Fortunately he had brothers to set things right as the law surely didn't...…..
I never saw any evidence posted that Lyon's men were ordered to deliberately shot babies in womens arms. That would make a great seperate thread since that had nothing to do with guerrilla warfare. There were no Confederate guerrillas in Missouri prior to Lyons death.
Leftyhunter
 
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Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
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Mar 7, 2014
Where did you get this "13 and over" stuff? I'm not saying it was never asserted by an author, but you certainly didn't get it from T. J. Stiles's book on Jesse James.

Regarding the excesses of Kansas troops, I previously gave you a link to an article by Albert Castel detailing some of the murders and burn outs perpetrated by Jennison, Lane, and others.
 

archieclement

Captain
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
Where did you get this "13 and over" stuff? I'm not saying it was never asserted by an author, but you certainly didn't get it from T. J. Stiles's book on Jesse James.

Regarding the excesses of Kansas troops, I previously gave you a link to an article by Albert Castel detailing some of the murders and burn outs perpetrated by Jennison, Lane, and others.
What's ironic just 2 weeks before Lawrence had crowed it would like to meet Quantrill.

The Lawrence State Journal had crowed "Lawrence has ready for any such emergency over 500 fighting men, everyone of whom would like to see Quantrill" They certainly got their wish.
 
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Borderruffian

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Location
Audrain County Missouri
Where did you get this "13 and over" stuff? I'm not saying it was never asserted by an author, but you certainly didn't get it from T. J. Stiles's book on Jesse James.

Regarding the excesses of Kansas troops, I previously gave you a link to an article by Albert Castel detailing some of the murders and burn outs perpetrated by Jennison, Lane, and others.
I think he's using the WCQ order to "Kill any boy old enough to tote a gun." as a basis for his his claim. While it may have been said on Mount Oread it's actual carrying out was some what lackluster. Yes some teenage boys were killed but not every one in Lawrence.
 
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TnFed

First Sergeant
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Edited.
From what I have researched of my partisan unionist ancestors they neither gave or ask quarter in fights with their foes. Strangely they all survived the war. That said one of the middle brothers was killed by June of 66, my gg grandfather was killed in a gunfight involving at least a dozen men on both sides at the Murphy Courthouse in Cherokee County NC. The fall of that year. All steaming from the war. By the way...Nobody on either side ever spent a day in jail...
The oldest brother, James, survived until 1870. He was shot while cradling oats. They never found out who did it but actually think it was another former unionist who feared him. They never got out of their twenties .The youngest, William, and I would say the smartest became a Methodist Preacher of the Gospel. He would live to be up in his eighties. The pen was mighter than the sword or at least safer.
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
In regards to the first entry no documentation that the Union Army under Lane just shot all males on sight. A comment on the article does state that 150 civilians were killed by Union troops but no sources cited.
Not sure how killing 150 to 200 men and boys was the proper response to the raid on Osceola. It only brought more hardship for civilian Missourians.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
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Location
los angeles ca
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Location
los angeles ca
The third source is not bad. Yes have I gave stated many times undisciplined Kansas troops did commit crimes and exasperated the insurgency in Missouri.
On the other hand murdering unarmed men and boys in Lawrence didn't do anything to improve the lot of civilian Missourians. It was very stupid of the Confederate guerrillas that murderung boys and men would not have negative consequences for Missourians.
Leftyhunter
 

archieclement

Captain
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
In regards to the first entry no documentation that the Union Army under Lane just shot all males on sight. A comment on the article does state that 150 civilians were killed by Union troops but no sources cited.
Not sure how killing 150 to 200 men and boys was the proper response to the raid on Osceola. It only brought more hardship for civilian Missourians.
Leftyhunter
Gee how did they Jayhawkers raiding from Lawrence do preventing hardship for Lawrence civilians? It kinda seemed to boomerang the same as you say the guerrilla raid did on civilians......….Odd you never seem to comment or are concerned how that worked out...……

Or just more flip flopping like a catfish out of water
 
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