Discussion Union vs CSA Guerrilla

TnFed

First Sergeant
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Thanks my friend. Glenn you are the master of east-tn in the Civil war. Most of my knowledge stems around Monroe County TN. Cherokee County NC and Union County Grorgia. I will have to pay that area a visit soon.
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2010
Location
Kingsport, Tennessee
Thanks my friend. Glenn you are the master of east-tn in the Civil war. Most of my knowledge stems around Monroe County TN. Cherokee County NC and Union County Grorgia. I will have to pay that area a visit soon.

A line of my Land family left Wilkes County, NC years before the the Civil War and settled in Monroe County. You already know about Captain Gray of the 3rd TN MTD being killed by the Kirkland Gang. Here's three of four brothers from Monroe County. The middle one in the photo deserted the 59th TN and joined the Union 7th TN Mounted. The other 3 brothers were paroled at Vicksburg and never went back. Two went to Texas. The middle one in the photo later joined them, two of his sons became Texas Rangers.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/el...om-east-tennessee-to-texas.92366/#post-757804
 

TnFed

First Sergeant
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Texas Rangers!! Some brave people. I was looking at the trivia question today....don't know the answer...but my wife 's family are all from Letcher County Ky. I asked her if she knew the answer but she said dunno..lol. Now if an almost 8 foot giant had fought in the war from Monroe County Tn. I think I would know.lol. Anyway I have read a little about the war in that area. They make some of our east-tn folks look like Quakers. I once read where confederate and unionist families would dig up each other's graves and throw the body out. Don't know how true that is. While east-Ky was a good part unionist, Letcher County was mostly Confederate.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Here you go my CSA Today. Did Unionist guerrillas control territory? Where they at least as serious a threat to the CSA has CSA guerrillas where to the Union? Lets find out.
From the book "War at every door Partisan politics&guerrilla violence in East Tennessee 1860-1869 Noel Fisher Univ of North Carolina Press
P.68 In early 1862 Unionist guerrillas in Scot and Morgan Counties killed a number of secessionists burned Confederate homes took over all county offices and caused secessionists to flee to Kingston, Tn. Gen. Kirby Smith sent one thousand troops to clear out the guerrillas but when they left the guerrillas simply reasserted control(p.69). In April 1862 Gen. Smith reported that organized bands of guerrillas existed in 25 of 32 Tn counties under his control. Unionist guerrillas also attacked CSA soldiers returning to east Tn after their failed invasion of Tn.
P.79 Captain Stringfield CSA provost Martial for Carter County wrote that the people where loyal to the Union and it was dangerous to travel outside the camps. P.71 the presidents of local RR's wrote to President Davis complaining of attacks on their RR's and demanding protection. Does this sound like Unionist guerrillas just held unoccupied ground?
Leftyhunter
@archieclement
Here is an example of the effectiveness of Unionist guerrillas in East Tennessee.
I should have some posts on Southern Mississippi. I will try to get them to you.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Their was Unionist guerrilla activity in Sc an SW Va. Per p.161 "Deserter bands in Greenville,Pickens and Spartansburg counties built fortifications chased of conscript companies, raided supply depots and looted and burned the property of anyone who openly supported the Confederacy". The also had the support of the population. In SW Va"J.E. Joyner noted "Montgomery, Floyd and Giles Counties wher especially infested by armed bands of deserters. "Local Unionists too aroused by Confederate home -guard depredations formed armed militias . "One unit headed by "Captain" Charles Huff regularly backed up local deserters and ambushed home guard patrols. Their was a Unionist double agent Joseph Phares who informed Huff of home guard movements while feeding misinformation to CSA officers.
Leftyhunter
@archieclement ,
More evidence that Confederate guerrillas in Missouri were not the only active guerrillas. Ganing control of territory is the name of the game in guerilla warfare. Not inflicting casualties and receiving them in turn with no political gain.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
You seem to have terrorism confused with irregular or partisan warfare. they aren't the same, the first example you provide is terrorism, targeting civilians in TN, 2nd example is at least fighting enemy forces, though you haven't provided they had any lasting control of any area...….or any actual cooperation with organized forces at all. Irregular forces or partisan rangers are in effect raiders, they are supposed to inflict casualties on enemy forces, disrupt communication, and destroy military property.
 
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
You seem to have terrorism confused with irregular or partisan warfare. they aren't the same, the first example you provide is terrorism, targeting civilians in TN, 2nd example is at least fighting enemy forces, though you haven't provided they had any lasting control of any area...….or any actual cooperation with organized forces at all. Irregular forces or partisan rangers are in effect raiders, they are supposed to inflict casualties on enemy forces, disrupt communication, and destroy military property.
Terrorism is the killing of non combatants to force a government to accept the political demands of the terrorists.
By that definition the Lawrence Massacre would be as close an example of that occuring in the Civil War.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
Terrorism is the killing of non combatants to force a government to accept the political demands of the terrorists.
By that definition the Lawrence Massacre would be as close an example of that occuring in the Civil War.
Leftyhunter
Really? What political demand was made at Lawrence? You apparently are making a claim no other historian has made. Historians acknowledge it was done in response to injustices done to them, and Lawrence was targeted because of the criminal behavior of the troops from there. Nothing at all about some political demand. If jayhawkers killing non combantants to rob them doesn't meet terrorism, raiding and killing them in response wouldn't either
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Really? What political demand was made at Lawrence? You apparently are making a claim no other historian has made. Historians acknowledge it was done in response to injustices done to them, and Lawrence was targeted because of the criminal behavior of the troops from there. Nothing at all about some political demand. If jayhawkers killing non combantants to rob them doesn't meet terrorism, raiding and killing them in response wouldn't either
Revenge and terrorism go hand in hand. Terrorism is how the weaker side asserts power over a stronger side. Plenty of modern examples.
All insurgency warfare involves crimes against civilians. Revenge is just part of insurgency.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
So General Ewing was a terrorist......OK, I wont argue Order no 11 was motivated by little more then revenge, the timing was rather obvious
 

Borderruffian

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Location
Marshfield Missouri
Terrorism is the killing of non combatants to force a government to accept the political demands of the terrorists.
By that definition the Lawrence Massacre would be as close an example of that occuring in the Civil War.
Leftyhunter
As would Oceola and Dayton Mo as well as many other Kansas raids into Missouri. How bout order number one 11 and the Burnt District?
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
No because even Kansas troops didn't kill every male 13 and over on sight.
Leftyhunter
Nor did Quantrill's men at Lawrence. No history of Lawrence I've ever read (including memoirs from eye witnesses) has specified an age range of 13 and up. One victim was a twelve year old boy. Connelley (Kansas historian) says he was wearing items of clothing from his father'a militia uniform, and was possibly misidentified. Furthermore, not every male "old enough to carry a gun" was killed at Lawrence. Estimates vary, but most histories estimate the range from 150 to about 200 victims. I'm in no way suggesting that it was okay to murder unarmed civilians at Lawrence. I am definitely challenging your wild, inaccurate remarks. I don't know where you get some of this stuff.
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
So yesterday I discovered that Jesse James rode alongside "Bloody Bill" Anderson during the war. Did James continue guerrilla activity after Anderson's death? I know that he became a notable outlaw later in life, but don't know much, if anything, about his time serving the Confederacy.
I'm reading through this thread for the first time in many months, so I apologize if someone else has answered this question already (or if I answered it and forgot!) After Anderson's death, Archie Clements took over his band. Jesse continued to ride with him. When Quantrill started for Kentucky, Jesse and Frank were among the boys who decided to go with him. However, Jesse changed his mind at the Mississippi and decided to strike out for Texas. Frank stayed with Q. So the short answer is: Yes, Jesse continued guerrilla activity after Anderson's death.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
I'm reading through this thread for the first time in many months, so I apologize if someone else has answered this question already (or if I answered it and forgot!) After Anderson's death, Archie Clements took over his band. Jesse continued to ride with him. When Quantrill started for Kentucky, Jesse and Frank were among the boys who decided to go with him. However, Jesse changed his mind at the Mississippi and decided to strike out for Texas. Frank stayed with Q. So the short answer is: Yes, Jesse continued guerrilla activity after Anderson's death.
Theres also a gap, Anderson is killled towards the end of Oct 64, Q doesn't call for men to go to KY till Dec
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Nor did Quantrill's men at Lawrence. No history of Lawrence I've ever read (including memoirs from eye witnesses) has specified an age range of 13 and up. One victim was a twelve year old boy. Connelley (Kansas historian) says he was wearing items of clothing from his father'a militia uniform, and was possibly misidentified. Furthermore, not every male "old enough to carry a gun" was killed at Lawrence. Estimates vary, but most histories estimate the range from 150 to about 200 victims. I'm in no way suggesting that it was okay to murder unarmed civilians at Lawrence. I am definitely challenging your wild, inaccurate remarks. I don't know where you get some of this stuff.
I should of said they certainly tried to kill every male 13 and over.
Leftyhunter
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
I should of said they certainly tried to kill every male 13 and over.
Leftyhunter
Okay, Lefty! Now, you might be onto something with this post! I agree with you that some of them probably did, although I still think (I can't prove this...it's just a strong hunch) that Anderson's band committed the worst crimes at Lawrence. I'm pretty sure Todd was whipping up his band, too. But, you know, some of those guys who went with Q. were thoroughly put off by the murders. They soon left and joined up with regular forces, such as Shelby's brigade. Others lapped it all up with their blood lust.

What a crazy, bloody, awful time it was to live on either side of the line in the border region.
 

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