Trying to ID Branch & Rank

[VAGirl]

This one is taking me too long to figure out - Shows me how much I don't know!

He is identified as Henry W. Schmidt, with the photograph taken in New York City, New York. I can't find him in the records. There are many Infantry Privates by the same name (w/no middle initial), & 4 Cavalry Privates (w/ no middle initial).

• I can't tell what the insignia is on his hat - to tell me his branch of service. Is it an Infantry horn?
• I can't tell how many feathers (1, 2, or 3?) are in his hat - to help me with rank.
• His sash is tied at his left hip, which is where it's supposed to be tied, so I don't think the image is reversed. So - He has his hat looped up on his right side, suggestive of Infantry.
• His sword is curved - Cavalry
• He wears gauntlets - Cavalry? Mounted Artillery?
• 9-button single-breasted frock coat - not Cavalry or Marines - Infantry enlisted up thru Captain
• Sash looks the same color as his shoulder boards - gold/buff - General officer
• Shoulder boards with fringe (epaulets) - I don't see anything on the "plank" part, but there appears to be something on the crescent end - I can't tell what - Enlisted with rank (but no chevrons) so more likely officer

I'm going with officer, probably Lieutenant or Captain, but other than that, I'm hoping you guys can help me out.

Branch? Rank?

Thanks!

 

[captaindrew]

I'd say cavalry Lt. or Captain. Infantry wouldn't have gauntlets and it looks like a cavalry officer's sword. Can't make out the hat emblem. Traditionally officers and cavalrymen pinned their hats up on the right because you shoulder your sword on the right. Infantry dress hats were pinned up on the left, going back to the old drill shouldering your musket on the left.

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy

 

[Lampasas Bill]

Could it be a post-war militia uniform, given the unusual hat badge?

 

[RedRover]

I'm with Lmapasas Bill above. Post war militia or national Guard, company grade officer. Probably New York (NY insignia on hat).

Here's a Mr. Schmidt of the 3rd New York National Guard Cavalry, a staff officer resigned in 1877:

So lets see, the 1870 New York Regulations mention the following relative to a cavalry 1st Lieutenant's uniform:

Regulation Hat:

 

[Salterr]

I appreciate your attention to detail with everything you've listed already. Like you've mentioned he is in fact an officer. He has fringe on his epaulettes and while it's hard to know exactly from the photo, the fringe bullion length and diameter are signs of rank. His single row of buttons would make him a lieutenant or captain. His sword drag is very ornate this would not be some enlisted man. His sash is crimson as it does not match his buff colored gauntlets. Being crimson he'd be in really any department other than medical (green) The epaulet fringe for officers goes like this, LT 1/8 thick 2.5 inches long. Captains 1/4 thick 2.5 inches long. Field officers of major to colonel and generals 1/2 thick and 3.5 inches long. His look to be about 1/4. As for his insignia it can be customized but is the wreath design normally having US in it but could also have other letters to represent department or state, I just can't see them. There might be something to the other poster's NY militia route. The first letter does look like N to me.

 

[Old Soldier]

The emulsion used on these old photos did not react well to red so it appears on photos as black or very dark grey. Blue often appears light grey so I would guess that his sash would be light blue or perhaps yellow. This would also apply to the hat cords. If they were red, they would match the black of the hat. That may also apply to the featthers in his hat - they could be red! What rank is he showing?

 

[Seduzal]

Welcome to CWT from the Smoky Mountain side of North Carolina. Just jump right in and enjoy. To get a better overview of these form s you can look here: https://civilwartalk.com/forums/

 

[Salterr]

The emulsion used on these old photos did not react well to red so it appears on photos as black or very dark grey. Blue often appears light grey so I would guess that his sash would be light blue or perhaps yellow. This would also apply to the hat cords. If they were red, they would match the black of the hat. That may also apply to the featthers in his hat - they could be red! What rank is he showing?

Blue wouldn't be a regulation option for the sash. There is crimson, emerald and buff sashes for the officers. Enlisted cords would be branch colored but an officer would have twisted black and gold or gold for generals. The feathers are ostrich feathers and are black.

 

[captaindrew]

The bottom sash is a field officer's sash across all branches. It's crimson/burgundy and made of silk, compared to the NCO sash which is red and made of worsted wool. The officer in the photo is most likely wearing a field officer's sash.

 

[Package4]

This one is taking me too long to figure out - Shows me how much I don't know!

He is identified as Henry W. Schmidt, with the photograph taken in New York City, New York. I can't find him in the records. There are many Infantry Privates by the same name (w/no middle initial), & 4 Cavalry Privates (w/ no middle initial).

• I can't tell what the insignia is on his hat - to tell me his branch of service. Is it an Infantry horn?
• I can't tell how many feathers (1, 2, or 3?) are in his hat - to help me with rank.
• His sash is tied at his left hip, which is where it's supposed to be tied, so I don't think the image is reversed. So - He has his hat looped up on his right side, suggestive of Infantry.
• His sword is curved - Cavalry
• He wears gauntlets - Cavalry? Mounted Artillery?
• 9-button single-breasted frock coat - not Cavalry or Marines - Infantry enlisted up thru Captain
• Sash looks the same color as his shoulder boards - gold/buff - General officer
• Shoulder boards with fringe (epaulets) - I don't see anything on the "plank" part, but there appears to be something on the crescent end - I can't tell what - Enlisted with rank (but no chevrons) so more likely officer

I'm going with officer, probably Lieutenant or Captain, but other than that, I'm hoping you guys can help me out.

Branch? Rank?

Thanks!

View attachment 483339

View attachment 483340

He is right out of a Schuyler, Hartley & Graham or Brooks Brothers catalog! I believe this to be war date as everything he has on is war date, though later in the war. The frock conforms to war date wear as does the hat and adornment, epaulettes are for dress and date to the period. The sleeve at the elbow looks to be more than the 16" of later IW militia, though the collar does give me pause, but this could be tailored to his preference. I agree he is from NY and I think a Lt. The sword looks to be a presentation, though very difficult to tell. Just MHO.....

 

[7thWisconsin]

I think the hat emblem reads ¨U.S.¨, which is a standard officer hat emblem. He may be a staff officer.

 

[Sowbelly and Hardtack]

I'm still puzzled by the bullion insignia on the front of his slouch. Normally the letters "US" are in a straight line and the second letter appears to have a tail. Here is an example for the State of New York.

 

[VAGirl]

It doesn't appear to match the NY hat emblem you've shown. His almost seems to be asymmetrical. I thought at first the infantry horn worked, but it doesn't seem to be a fit.

I've got a friend who is a photographer & I've asked her to send me some samples of what red, crimson, light blue, darker blue, & yellow would look like as a sepia toned salt print or albumen print (each different). I'm hoping she can come through for me. So often the clues are already there, we just can't see them. (If you guys already have sample photos that show those colors, I'd love to see them.)

And I just wanted to say - Wow! - I had no idea that there were different lengths to the shoulder fringe! You guys really know your stuff!

 

[VAGirl]

But then again, after another swallow, if the wreath is an (almost?) full circle (blur), the NY insignia DOES appear to match!

 

[VAGirl]

I'm with Lmapasas Bill above. Post war militia or national Guard, company grade officer. Probably New York (NY insignia on hat).

Here's a Mr. Schmidt of the 3rd New York National Guard Cavalry, a staff officer resigned in 1877:

View attachment 483379

So lets see, the 1870 New York Regulations mention the following relative to a cavalry 1st Lieutenant's uniform:
View attachment 483380


View attachment 483381

Regulation Hat:
View attachment 483382

View attachment 483383
View attachment 483385
View attachment 483387
View attachment 483386

RedRover - Where did you find the National Guard information? I've had difficulty finding soldiers not in the "regular" army, etc.

And I thank you for finding a name for my "lost photo soul."

Thanks -

 

[RedRover]

RedRover - Where did you find the National Guard information? I've had difficulty finding soldiers not in the "regular" army, etc.

And I thank you for finding a name for my "lost photo soul."

Thanks -

1877-78 New York annual report:

Annual Report, NY, 1878: Schmidt, Google books

 

[Salterr]

It doesn't appear to match the NY hat emblem you've shown. His almost seems to be asymmetrical. I thought at first the infantry horn worked, but it doesn't seem to be a fit.

I've got a friend who is a photographer & I've asked her to send me some samples of what red, crimson, light blue, darker blue, & yellow would look like as a sepia toned salt print or albumen print (each different). I'm hoping she can come through for me. So often the clues are already there, we just can't see them. (If you guys already have sample photos that show those colors, I'd love to see them.)

And I just wanted to say - Wow! - I had no idea that there were different lengths to the shoulder fringe! You guys really know your stuff!

Insignia is my specialty here, I appreciate the comment. That hat insignia is the M1858 style and so it's big, 3 inches and had a metal stiffener inside. Each insignia is hand embroidered so the variations are nearly endless. It's very common to see nearly enclosed wreaths, if it was a horn it would not have a wreath and would be more discernible. As a lieutenant he'll have 1 feather and the upturned part of his hat is held by an eagle badge. The eagles face determine what side it goes on and what branch the soldier belongs to depending on its direction although it's not always by the book. There are many variations to the way it faces and what is held in each claw, arrows and olive branches in either.

 

[Robert Gray]

A New York sword belt plate.