Tiffanys cutlass real?

History_1879

Cadet
Joined
Dec 19, 2019
Hello everyone, new member here!
I recently got this apparently Tiffanys cutlass. I am no expert and I was wondering if it is original. The brass appears to been polished, the blade has a nice patina and it does not appeared to be re sharpened or shortened. Any information on what is it (real vs fake, model?) would be greatly appreciated. If possible provide sources for you comments so I can educate myself.
It measures about 31-1/2 inches pommel to tip, blade about 25-1/2.
God bless

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I'm no expert, but if that patina is applied I would like to know who did it. The "Tiffany" is hot stamped and most of the fakes I see are cold stamped. It does appear to have been cleaned but again, a very good job. I'm sure the experts will be along who know if Tiffany made a cutlass or if there were period fake Tiffanys.
 
Welcome From THE Heart Of Dixie. I don't believe that its a Tiffany cutlass. Tiffany did not make swords but rather imported them from the Germany firm Peter D. Luneschloss and should have a PDL on the other side. Plus all Tiffany swords I have seen had the New York mark spelled out and not NY. Plus the stamping very sloppy.


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Here is one from my collection that is not makers marked but has the inspectors mark on the pommel and the ship rack # on the guard. Does your have these features?
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uvcrelics, Were period fake Tiffaneys made? I have seen a number of swords that had a forged makers name but were made in the same time period as the genuine article. In fact, one of my favorite Samurai Swords is probably and early 1800s forgery of an 1600s sword.
 
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uvcrelics, Were period fake Tiffaneys made? I have seen a number of swords that had a forged makers name but were made in the same time period as the genuine article. In fact, one of my favorite Samurai Swords is probably and early 1800s forgery of an 1860s sword.
IMHO this cutlass is a period piece but someone has put the Tiffany marking on it. But until I see if it has the inspectors marks on the pommel or the rack # its hard to say but I can tell you that the Tiffany markings are not real.
 
Here is one from my collection that is not makers marked but has the inspectors mark on the pommel and the ship rack # on the guard. Does your have these features?
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Beautiful cutlass, thanks for sharing! It does not have any distinctive rack marks or inspector marks. I purchased it in Peru, as how it made it there I have no clue, I believe the only American ships sold to Peru during this period were the monitor class iron clads in the 1870's. It would be interesting to know if these were part of their arsenal aboard.

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IMHO this cutlass is a period piece but someone has put the Tiffany marking on it. But until I see if it has the inspectors marks on the pommel or the rack # its hard to say but I can tell you that the Tiffany markings are not real.

I just want to say that it's awesome that people exist who can comment on questions like this!

And I mean "awesome" not as slang but truly.

Roy B.
 
An interesting sword. It does not look like a repro but I'm not sure exactly what it is. The Medicus collection included a Tiffany-marked M1861 cutlass, but from the photo in the Fledermann book it is hard to tell details. I have also heard a member of the Sword Forum International site had an example in his collection, but he never posted a photo. I am fairly confident your cutlasses is not a wartime Ames product. First it lacks the Ames name and the inspection/acceptance marks found on wartime produced swords. (Granted these could have been worn/polished off or purposely removed.) Second, it lacks the serial numbers normally found on cutlasses made under Navy contract during the war. In June 1861 the Navy instructed Ames to serial number all cutlasses delivered. These are the numbers found stamped on the quillon in the format 12M/345. The sword with this marking would be the 12,345th​ cutlass produced by Ames. The cutlass shown by UCV above is stamped 20M/95 which shows it was the 20,095th​ cutlass produced for the Navy. (These numbers are often erroneously referred to as "rack numbers".) One occasionally finds unserial numbered cutlasses. Ames also produced 300 M1861 cutlasses for the Army which were not serial numbered but which were inspector marked "A.D.K.". The US Revenue Marine/Revenue Cutter Service (USRM/RCS) was the predecessor to the Coast Guard. During the CW it bought about 1000 Navy-style cutlasses to equip its cutters. It is believed these were also not serial numbered. Third, and in my view most important, Ames wartime cutlasses had 19 turns of wide on their grips; this cutlass appears to have only about 13 or 14.
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Although most collectors think production of the M1861 cutlass ceased in 1864, in fact a small number were produced later in the century. These include the special-order cutlasses produced for the USS Niagara and USS Aloha around the turn of the century as well as the Medicus-pictured Ames Sword Co officer's cutlass named to Winfried Proskey. They were etched with the name of the ship or the officer, but no serial numbers. In the 1890s the RCS and the Navy also ordered a small number of additional cutlasses, all apparently completely unmarked. Finally New York and possibly other State Naval Militias ordered a small number of cutlasses for their units. Aside from markings (or lack thereof), the main difference from the CW examples is the number of turns of wire on the grips is reduced.
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I suspect your cutlass may be from this later era and is probably an Ames product. If so, it may have been purchased through Tiffany, just as the Niagara cutlasses were procured through Hartley Graham, in which case the Tiffany markiings would be genuine. Alternatively, someone may have wanted to improve on unmarked Ames by stamping it with the prestigious Tiffany name. I tend to doubt this. The Horse Soldier Tiffany cutlass is quite different construction, and I have no idea why or for whom it was made. The blade etching appears to by a style found on late-century officers' swords.

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Personally, I see no reason to doubt this is exactly what it looks like. I agree it was probably made by the Ames Manufacturing Co., and although they DID make cutlasses under contract for the U.S. Government, there's no reason smaller lots may not have been contracted for by dealers or "outfitters" like Tiffany & Company; Schuyler, Hartley, & Graham; Fitch & Waldo (precursor to Abercrombie & Fitch); and others for retail sale to states or individuals. If so, they would certainly lack such as serial or rack numbers, etc. if the Tiffany name had been applied later - that is, faked on a genuine piece - it would've had to be taken apart to do so, and from the integrity of the leather washer I doubt this has been done.
 
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Personally, I see no reason to doubt this is exactly what it looks like. I agree it was probably made by the Ames Manufacturing Co., and although they DID make cutlasses under contract for the U.S. Government, there's no reason smaller lots may not have been contracted for by dealers or "outfitters" like Tiffany & Company; Schuyler, Hartley, & Graham; Fitch & Waldo (precursor to Abercrombie & Fitch); and others for retail sale to states or individuals. If so, they would certainly lack such as serial or rack numbers, etc. if the Tiffany name had been applied later - that is, faked on a genuine piece - it would've had to be taken apart to do so, and from the integrity of the leather washer I doubt this has been done.

I have to respectfully disagree. Just the name Tiffany means quality and this marking is way to sloppy to have done by Tiffany, plus it is NOT the Tiffany markings. I have seen MANY Tiffany sword marks and have NEVER seen one with just NY, it is always New York. The font is NOT correct to any others and the Y looks like a V with a line under it. Until someone can show me another cutlass or sword with this marking I have to stand by my assessment.
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I worked at T&Co for 15 years, and many were spent on historical matters, and in that era, the stamping was not always uniform, some look a little crude, they hadnt settled on an official standard yet. How this may bear on the sword in question I have no idea. Tiffany defintely supplied various military equipment of a mostly decorative nature. The blades as said before were imported.
 
History 1879, I just reread your post. American companies supplied a lot of swords to South America during the different revolutions and Bana Wars. I have a Collins sword with the logo in Spanish. I can easily see someone making the cutlass and then stamping it Tiffaney to make more valuable.
 
I checked out the photo of the Tiffany cutlass from the Medicus Collection. It is figure 94.a. on page 196 of Norm Fleyderman's book "American Swords from the Phillip Medicius Collection". This cutlass, like yours, is stamped with the name "TIFFANY & Co/NY". It is hard to tell from the photo, but it appears it may also have fewer than the 19 turns of wire seen on Ames CW-era cutlasses. Although from the grips, these Tiffany examples look post-CW, there may be persuasive evidence of an earlier date. The example owned by the SFI member is reportedly stamped on the knucklebow "USRC HARRIET LANE". Since the Harriet Lane was captured by the Confederates early in the war, if the marking is authentic, this would suggest the cutlass was procured by the Revenue Cutter Service at the beginning of the war. I have never seen the cutlass so cannot really judge. Whichever, you have a rare and desirable sword.
 

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