The war within the Confederacy

[leftyhunter]

What is really ironic is that nearly all the irregular violence spreading from Kansas to Kentucky and beyond, was white on white violence. African Americans virtually never formed irregular units to protect themselves from the irregular pro Confederates.
There are a few integrated defense units that existed in Missouri, Lefty can probably find the references.

What is really ironic is that nearly all the irregular violence spreading from Kansas to Kentucky and beyond, was white on white violence. African Americans virtually never formed irregular units to protect themselves from the irregular pro Confederates.
There are a few integrated defense units that existed in Missouri, Lefty can probably find the references.

Per Dyers there were some 90 day black Mo emergency militia units during Prices invasion.I have not read any accounts of these militia units in actual combat more guarding prisoners.
The only know account of an active black COIN unit is the 1st Kn Colored Regiment. @damYankee has a thread on their actions at Island Mound, Mo. it may still be on the 1st page of this forum.
Black COIN units would of been ideal since Union white COIN soldiers would not have to worry if they were Union or CSA since there really wasn't any black Confederate troops. Unfortunately it appears that while black troops were used in conventional fighting their only COIN role was static defense.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

This is not actually true. The Confederacy lost West Virginia on paper per the Federal government. On the ground, however, the Confederacy did not lose West Virginia. As per the vote of May 23, 1861, 24 counties of West Virginia, about 2/3's of the new state, supported the Confederacy. The Union invasion of West Virginia eroded support, so much so that counties on the Ohio border, which had voted sometimes 4-1 against secession, nevertheless gave half their available men to the Confederacy, Putnam, Cabell, Wayne, Jackson, etc. The Union never really controlled West Virginia, the new state absorbed from 20-40,000 Union troops in occupation, and Union troops didn't leave the state until 1869.

Richard Current does a very bad job on West Virginia Union soldiers. The regiments organized by Ward Lamon which Current attributes to West Virginia and northern Virginia were actually filled out by recruits he gathered from Ohio and Indiana.

Baltimore Daily Exchange July 22. 1861.

View attachment 139878

Current actually does acknowledge that many Northerners were is the 4th Wv but also many Virginians from across the state enlisted in out of state Union regiments.
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

You say you have Currents book. Feel free to pick it apart. I started a thread a few years back which you posted on extensively " By what meteric was the Confederate soldier superior."
Leftyhunter

Since you used it as a source I thought you would tell where to look without picking the book apart.
You and your "sources" have gone far to make the case for his superiority. No mention of Michael Honey this go around and "his impressive credentials"?

 

[CSA Today]

Current actually does acknowledge that many Northerners were is the 4th Wv but also many Virginians from across the state enlisted in out of state Union regiments.
Leftyhunter[/QUOTE]
Does Current acknowledge the many Pennsylvanians that served in Virginia regiments?

 

[leftyhunter]

Not that I am aware. Can you provide documentation and post it in the thread" Northerners that faught for the South"?
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Since you used it as a source I thought you would tell where to look without picking the book apart.
You and your "sources" have gone far to make the case for his superiority. No mention of Michael Honey this go around and "his impressive credentials"?

You say you have the Currents book. Use it.
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

You say you have the Currents book. Use it.
Leftyhunter

I will, but if you are going to post questionable material. ii should be up to you to post more precise documentation than: "You say you have Current's book use it." The appendix is the best place to go for summation of Current's commentary. I will go through it and post my opinions and when I finish I will post my conclusions. A cursory reading would indicate an unconvincing methodology even with his inclusion of West Virginia as a Confederate state. I don't have a major problem with including West Virginia as part of the CS long as one is consistent. There are problems with who, from where, served in her regiment. If there was a state that leads the list with out of state soldiers it would be what is now the state of West Virginia.

 

[leftyhunter]

I will, but if you are going to post questionable material. ii should be up to you to post more precise documentation than: "You say you have Current's book use it." The appendix is the best place to go for summation of Current's commentary. I will go through it and post my opinions and when I finish I will post my conclusions. A cursory reading would indicate an unconvincing methodology even with his inclusion of West Virginia as a Confederate state. I don't have a major problem with including West Virginia as part of the CS long as one is consistent. There are problems with who, from where, served in her regiment. If there was a state that leads the list with out of state soldiers it would be what is now the state of West Virginia.

I eagerly await your reply.
Leftyhunter

 

[John S. Carter]

North Carolina soldiers proved their loyalty to the CSA by their blood shed on the battlefields. In recent years, the total deaths have been reduced by about 5 or 6 thousand, but it is still larger than for any other Confederate state.

"One-fifth of the Confederate losses in the Seven Days' battles near Richmond in 1862, one-third at Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, and one-fourth at Gettysburg were North Carolinians. Of the twenty-seven regiments suffering the highest casualties at Gettysburg, thirteen were from North Carolina; the twentieth-six North Carolina regiment suffered casualties of 86 percent, the highest of all regiments on either side during the war. General William R. Cox's brigade fired the last shots of the Army of Northern Virginia, and at Appomattox one-fifth of those who surrendered with Lee were from North Carolina. In the entire war, 19,673 North Carolinians were killed in battle - more than one-fourth of the total Confederate battle deaths and 20,602 died of disease. North Carolina's total loss in battle and from disease was 40,275, which was greater than any other Confederate state."

Source: Hugh Talmage Lefler and Albert Ray Newsome, The History of a Southern State: North Carolina (Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1963), pp. 430-431

Is it true that North Carolina supplied more solidiers for both North and South than any other state?

 

[John S. Carter]

???

North Carolina voted against secession (80 Union delegates, 40 for secession) and voted against having a convention. But then came Fort Sumter and Lincoln's call for troops. The sentiments of the delegates went from that 80-40 against secession to 120-0 for it.

What was it that changed the state,? Was it the fear of Northern troops invading their states? How did the slave owners gain control of the state in such a short time? Did South Carolina rush troops in and take over the convention? When you say semtiments of the delegates please to explian.Semiiments for her sister states or was it that fear of Republican oppression to their way of life.

 

[leftyhunter]

I

Is it true that North Carolina supplied more solidiers for both North and South than any other state?

Would think New York supplied the most troops for the Union.Tennessee supplied the most for the Union among the Confederacy.
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

Is it true that North Carolina supplied more solidiers for both North and South than any other state?

I would depend on how you count what became West Virginia. Historian Richard N. Current considers West Virginia as part of the Confederacy, at least for number of troops compilation. The inclusion of the approximate 20,000 West Virginians serving in Virginia units probably tips the numbers in Virginia's favour. As for supplying troops to the North, North Carolina came in fourth behind Tennessee, Arkansas, and Louisiana and just ahead of Alabama.

 

[leftyhunter]

From the book "Lincoln's Loyalists Union soldiers from the Confederacy" Richard Current North Easter University Press
p.26
Current makes the following points.
1.. Most soldiers from what became known as Wv joined the Union Army prior to Wv being admitted as a new state. Therefore the vast majority of Union troops from Va are from Va not what became known latter as Wv.
2. Yes the U.S. Provost Marshall Figure of 31,872 credited to WV does include men from Pa and Oh. However the Provost Marshall does not take into account that Lamon recruited who joined out of state regiments in Md and Pa. or other Virginian troops not from Wv.
On p.215 -216 Current shows that the generally accepted figure of Unionist troops from Wv is 25k. That figure does not take into account out of state enlistments, reenlistments and enlistments of Virginians outside of what would become Wv so Current's estimate overall for troops from Va is 30k.
Leftyhunter

 

[16thVA]

From the book "Lincoln's Loyalists Union soldiers from the Confederacy" Richard Current North Easter University Press
p.26
Current makes the following points.
1.. Most soldiers from what became known as Wv joined the Union Army prior to Wv being admitted as a new state. Therefore the vast majority of Union troops from Va are from Va not what became known latter as Wv.
2. Yes the U.S. Provost Marshall Figure of 31,872 credited to WV does include men from Pa and Oh. However the Provost Marshall does not take into account that Lamon recruited who joined out of state regiments in Md and Pa. or other Virginian troops not from Wv.
On p.215 -216 Current shows that the generally accepted figure of Unionist troops from Wv is 25k. That figure does not take into account out of state enlistments, reenlistments and enlistments of Virginians outside of what would become Wv so Current's estimate overall for troops from Va is 30k.
Leftyhunter

Hi Lefty, as I pointed out, the Ward Lamon regiments he credits to WV/VA is mostly MD, OH and IN. Current also missed a very important statement by Whitelaw Reid in Ohio in the War, Vol. 2, pg. 3, that Ohio had contributed "...large parts of five regiments credited to the West Virginia contingent..."

https://archive.org/stream/ohioinwarherstat00reid#page/n11/mode/2up

The current estimate for WV is about 20,000 Union troops, and with about 2,000 from the rest of Virginia it would be about 22,000 altogether.

 

[John S. Carter]

???

North Carolina voted against secession (80 Union delegates, 40 for secession) and voted against having a convention. But then came Fort Sumter and Lincoln's call for troops. The sentiments of the delegates went from that 80-40 against secession to 120-0 for it.

Would you happened to know why they changed so radically afer the Sumter and call for troops? Based on what has been written there must have been some movitational factor in this change.It wasn't the slavery issue.North Carolina did not have any Federal military forts.South Carolina did not threaten with invasion unless they changed their votes.So what was it?What do you mean by SENTIMENTS of the delgates?

 

[John S. Carter]

I did not know that. Could you list all the political positions he won before he became president.

I was just rendering him credit for his skill in the art.I am aware that Lincoln excepte for one term did not accomplish any other position.But even in lossing ,as with Douglas, he won recognition from other leading politicans for his skill.He would while a Whig would work to achieve the goals of the Party even it meant lossing his.Read his speeches and see the skill and art of persuadtion that he used .Lincoln did lose but in the final evaluation he won the one he desired the most

 

[John S. Carter]

NCPedia says the phrase was first used in 1900:

http://www.ncpedia.org/vale-humility-between-two-mountains

I was always under the impression it was much older than that.

May be the tar was a factor in their actions /TAR HEEL.What happens when you step into tar?

 

[leftyhunter]

Hi Lefty, as I pointed out, the Ward Lamon regiments he credits to WV/VA is mostly MD, OH and IN. Current also missed a very important statement by Whitelaw Reid in Ohio in the War, Vol. 2, pg. 3, that Ohio had contributed "...large parts of five regiments credited to the West Virginia contingent..."

https://archive.org/stream/ohioinwarherstat00reid#page/n11/mode/2up

The current estimate for WV is about 20,000 Union troops, and with about 2,000 from the rest of Virginia it would be about 22,000 altogether.

To be fair to Current per the pages I quoted he did indeed acknowledge Pennsylvania and Ohio troops joined West Virginian regiments as eell as Virginians joining out of state regiments which was quite common in the Civil War.
Did 22 thousand Virginians or 30 thousand Virginians join the Union Army?
That's a bit above my paygrade. All I can do is quote Currant vs of course you can quote other scholars or your own research.
Of course to complicate matters are Virginians that joined Union home guards that at the very least remove them from Confederate conscription.
At the very least the South was badly divided in term of supporting the Confederacy taking into account forty percent of the population being black plus Unionists. Not to say the North did not have serious political although mostly non violent opposition to the Union Civil War effort.
Leftyhunter

 

[jgoodguy]

I was just rendering him credit for his skill in the art.I am aware that Lincoln excepte for one term did not accomplish any other position.But even in lossing ,as with Douglas, he won recognition from other leading politicans for his skill.He would while a Whig would work to achieve the goals of the Party even it meant lossing his.Read his speeches and see the skill and art of persuadtion that he used .Lincoln did lose but in the final evaluation he won the one he desired the most

And I see him as in over his head and making lots of errors. His one advantage was learning on the job.

 

[16thVA]

To be fair to Current per the pages I quoted he did indeed acknowledge Pennsylvania and Ohio troops joined West Virginian regiments as eell as Virginians joining out of state regiments which was quite common in the Civil War.
Did 22 thousand Virginians or 30 thousand Virginians join the Union Army?
That's a bit above my paygrade. All I can do is quote Currant vs of course you can quote other scholars or your own research.
Of course to complicate matters are Virginians that joined Union home guards that at the very least remove them from Confederate conscription.
At the very least the South was badly divided in term of supporting the Confederacy taking into account forty percent of the population being black plus Unionists. Not to say the North did not have serious political although mostly non violent opposition to the Union Civil War effort.
Leftyhunter

Even good historians make mistakes, such as Mark Neely in Fate of Liberty saying that the Camp Chase records were lost, when actually they had been microfilmed by the National Archives and were readily available. Current should at least have looked at "Ohio in the War" when he knew there were Ohioans in WV regiments. And information on Ward Lamon's brigade was available when Current published his book. In United States Marshals and Their Deputies, 1789-1989, Frederick Calhoun wrote in 1991-

Although Lamon hoped to find volunteers among loyal Virginians, that proved difficult because of the "demoralization of the people there" over Union defeats. In September 1861, he traveled to Pennsylvania and Illinois enlisting recruits. He returned with a command of seven hundred men. Early in the war, the "Virginia Brigade," as Lamon insisted on calling it, guarded the forts along the Potomac River. Lamon wore the rank of brigadier general. but he also retained his commission as U.S. Marshal.

For some reason I remembered it as Ohio and Indiana, but it was Pennsylvania and Illinois where he got a lot of his recruits.