The war within the Confederacy

[CSA Today]

Hi CSA,
The article that I refernced is a quick read maybe three to five pages. Five to ten minutes reading at most. I would never suggest 300 pages. I was surprised that a Confederate govenor in 1864 admitted that the people of North Carolina were not strongly in favor of Secession.
Leftyhunter

Is this the correct link?
http://www.ncgenweb.us/ncuv/honey1.htm

I would be shocked given Vance's campaign rhetoric during the 1864 campaign and the elections one-sided results. Most North Carolinians were certainly in favour of continuing the war.

 

[leftyhunter]

Is this the correct link?
http://www.ncgenweb.us/ncuv/honey1.htm

I would be shocked given Vance's campaign rhetoric during the 1864 campaign and the elections one-sided results. Most North Carolinians were certainly in favour of continuing the war.

Yes that is the correct link. Michael Honey argues that most North Carolinians were not in favor of the war and Confederate supporters used heavy voter intimidation. Honey also argues General Lee was doubtful on the loyalty of North Carolina troops.
Leftyhunter

 

[IslayMalt]

I would guess (sorry no proof) that many, or all, states in the Confederacy had citizens whom didn't agree and supported the Union. However in regards to Conscription, I don't know. All I do know is that my ancestor was drafted? Elected? to join the CSA when he was 16 years old. I also know that he, nor his family owned slaves. They were poor, and in Northern VA. I'm guessing (yes guessing) that the way southern farms were treated by Union forces had some influence on his decision to fight for either the state of VA, or the CSA. Which I have no idea. I do know, at least from records, that his father deserted from the CSA a year after the war started. He went home to his farm and raised a family. How to reconcile the different thoughts or reasons between the two I don't know. On the Union side, I believe both of my ancestors volunteered at the beginning of the war. Those of my family living in MD, I haven't been able to track down.

Of course this is all conjecture because I have no written biography's of their beliefs. /shrug ... my opinion and thoughts are meaningless because I can't prove them. I'll write them anyway.

 

[CSA Today]

Yes that is the correct link. Michael Honey argues that most North Carolinians were not in favor of the war and Confederate supporters used heavy voter intimidation. Honey also argues General Lee was doubtful on the loyalty of North Carolina troops.
Leftyhunter

North Carolina soldiers proved their loyalty to the CSA by their blood shed on the battlefields. In recent years, the total deaths have been reduced by about 5 or 6 thousand, but it is still larger than for any other Confederate state.

"One-fifth of the Confederate losses in the Seven Days' battles near Richmond in 1862, one-third at Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, and one-fourth at Gettysburg were North Carolinians. Of the twenty-seven regiments suffering the highest casualties at Gettysburg, thirteen were from North Carolina; the twentieth-six North Carolina regiment suffered casualties of 86 percent, the highest of all regiments on either side during the war. General William R. Cox's brigade fired the last shots of the Army of Northern Virginia, and at Appomattox one-fifth of those who surrendered with Lee were from North Carolina. In the entire war, 19,673 North Carolinians were killed in battle - more than one-fourth of the total Confederate battle deaths and 20,602 died of disease. North Carolina's total loss in battle and from disease was 40,275, which was greater than any other Confederate state."

Source: Hugh Talmage Lefler and Albert Ray Newsome, The History of a Southern State: North Carolina (Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1963), pp. 430-431

 

[leftyhunter]

North Carolina soldiers proved their loyalty to the CSA by their blood shed on the battlefields. In recent years, the total deaths have been reduced by about 5 or 6 thousand, but it is still larger than for any other Confederate state.

"One-fifth of the Confederate losses in the Seven Days' battles near Richmond in 1862, one-third at Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, and one-fourth at Gettysburg were North Carolinians. Of the twenty-seven regiments suffering the highest casualties at Gettysburg, thirteen were from North Carolina; the twentieth-six North Carolina regiment suffered casualties of 86 percent, the highest of all regiments on either side during the war. General William R. Cox's brigade fired the last shots of the Army of Northern Virginia, and at Appomattox one-fifth of those who surrendered with Lee were from North Carolina. In the entire war, 19,673 North Carolinians were killed in battle - more than one-fourth of the total Confederate battle deaths and 20,602 died of disease. North Carolina's total loss in battle and from disease was 40,275, which was greater than any other Confederate state."

Source: Hugh Talmage Lefler and Albert Ray Newsome, The History of a Southern State: North Carolina (Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1963), pp. 430-431

No doubt. I am just stating what Honey stated. Of course you are more then welcome to dispute what Honey wrote.
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

No doubt. I am just stating what Honey stated. Of course you are more then welcome to dispute what Honey wrote.
Leftyhunter

I already have.

 

[19thGeorgia]

Yes that is the correct link. Michael Honey argues that most North Carolinians were not in favor of the war and Confederate supporters used heavy voter intimidation. Honey also argues General Lee was doubtful on the loyalty of North Carolina troops.
Leftyhunter

???

North Carolina voted against secession (80 Union delegates, 40 for secession) and voted against having a convention. But then came Fort Sumter and Lincoln's call for troops. The sentiments of the delegates went from that 80-40 against secession to 120-0 for it.

 

[CSA Today]

???

North Carolina voted against secession (80 Union delegates, 40 for secession) but voted against having a convention. But then came Fort Sumter and Lincoln's call for troops. The sentiments of the delegates went from that 80-40 against secession to 120-0 for it.

"The four-week pre-convention campaign was spirited and exciting. Of the 120 delegates chosen in the February 28 election, 42 were Secessionists, 28 were conditional Unionists, and fifty were unconditional Unionists. Of the eighty-six counties, only thirty elected secession delegates. In twenty-two counties, slaves numbered more than 25 percent of the total population. On the issue of secession, even the slaveholding area was divided. A secession county was generally a slaveholding county, but several counties were opposed to secession because of their Whig strength. The voters were so suspicious and so afraid that a convention might lead to secession that they surprised many people in the state and in the South by voting against the convention, 47,323 to 46,672. They refused to follow the advice of their unionist leaders. Hence the convention, which might have been controlled by Unionists never met."

Hugh Talmage Lefler and Albert Ray Newsome, The History of a Southern State: North Carolina (Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1963), pp. 422-423.

 

[atlantis]

"The four-week pre-convention campaign was spirited and exciting. Of the 120 delegates chosen in the February 28 election, 42 were Secessionists, 28 were conditional Unionists, and fifty were unconditional Unionists. Of the eighty-six counties, only thirty elected secession delegates. In twenty-two counties, slaves numbered more than 25 percent of the total population. On the issue of secession, even the slaveholding area was divided. A secession county was generally a slaveholding county, but several counties were opposed to secession because of their Whig strength. The voters were so suspicious and so afraid that a convention might lead to secession that they surprised many people in the state and in the South by voting against the convention, 47,323 to 46,672. They refused to follow the advice of their unionist leaders. Hence the convention, which might have been controlled by Unionists never met."

Hugh Talmage Lefler and Albert Ray Newsome, The History of a Southern State: North Carolina (Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1963), pp. 422-423.

4 years of living in what must have seemed like the world turned up side down, image the relief when the guns went silent.

 

[atlantis]

Well there is a good lesson here for anyone considering secession, you have to have more that just a simple majority of public support for success. I don't know if the outcome would have been different but it sure would have improved the odds for the secessionists/confederates.

 

[uaskme]

Yes that is the correct link. Michael Honey argues that most North Carolinians were not in favor of the war and Confederate supporters used heavy voter intimidation. Honey also argues General Lee was doubtful on the loyalty of North Carolina troops.
Leftyhunter

Virginians were always doubtful of NC loyalty. Davis also questioned it. A big part of it was the outspoken Vance, who was a true leader. Virginians blamed NC Troops for VA Commanders loses. No more than an excape goat for the papers. Finally Vance protested enough that Tar Heels were commanded by fellow Tar Heels. Contributions of NC to the Army of NVA is unquestionable.

NC was one of the poorer Slave States. Western NC sparingly few Blacks and Western Piedmont mixed. NC also had areas of Quaker populations, Gilford and Forsyth Counties. NC didn't want to be a Border State, who would?

As in other Southern States, War brought a strong Central Government, necessary to support a war. Didn't take long for the citizens to Grow tired of it. CSA soon was just as Repulsive as what the Federal Government was thought to be.

 

[CSA Today]

Virginians were always doubtful of NC loyalty. Davis also questioned it. A big part of it was the outspoken Vance, who was a true leader. Virginians blamed NC Troops for VA Commanders loses. No more than an excape goat for the papers. Finally Vance protested enough that Tar Heels were commanded by fellow Tar Heels. Contributions of NC to the Army of NVA is unquestionable.

NC was one of the poorer Slave States. Western NC sparingly few Blacks and Western Piedmont mixed. NC also had areas of Quaker populations, Gilford and Forsyth Counties. NC didn't want to be a Border State, who would?

As in other Southern States, War brought a strong Central Government, necessary to support a war. Didn't take long for the citizens to Grow tired of it. CSA soon was just as Repulsive as what the Federal Government was thought to be.

North Carolina was long known as: "a vale of humility between two mountains of conceit" -- Virginia and South Carolina.

 

[leftyhunter]

"The four-week pre-convention campaign was spirited and exciting. Of the 120 delegates chosen in the February 28 election, 42 were Secessionists, 28 were conditional Unionists, and fifty were unconditional Unionists. Of the eighty-six counties, only thirty elected secession delegates. In twenty-two counties, slaves numbered more than 25 percent of the total population. On the issue of secession, even the slaveholding area was divided. A secession county was generally a slaveholding county, but several counties were opposed to secession because of their Whig strength. The voters were so suspicious and so afraid that a convention might lead to secession that they surprised many people in the state and in the South by voting against the convention, 47,323 to 46,672. They refused to follow the advice of their unionist leaders. Hence the convention, which might have been controlled by Unionists never met."

Hugh Talmage Lefler and Albert Ray Newsome, The History of a Southern State: North Carolina (Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1963), pp. 422-423.

When I get some time over the 3 day weekend I will start a new thread on Confederate coercion of voters.
Leftyhunter

 

[Bruce Vail]

Virginians were always doubtful of NC loyalty. Davis also questioned it. A big part of it was the outspoken Vance, who was a true leader. Virginians blamed NC Troops for VA Commanders loses. No more than an excape goat for the papers. Finally Vance protested enough that Tar Heels were commanded by fellow Tar Heels. Contributions of NC to the Army of NVA is unquestionable.

NC was one of the poorer Slave States. Western NC sparingly few Blacks and Western Piedmont mixed. NC also had areas of Quaker populations, Gilford and Forsyth Counties. NC didn't want to be a Border State, who would?

As in other Southern States, War brought a strong Central Government, necessary to support a war. Didn't take long for the citizens to Grow tired of it. CSA soon was just as Repulsive as what the Federal Government was thought to be.

In my readings on the history of the 1st and 3rd NC Infantry Regiments I learned that officers of those two units complained for years that they were not brigaded together with other NC regiments under a NC-native commanding officer. They lobbied Gov. Vance to pressure Gen. Lee to get the change made. None of this had any effect until May 1864, when these two regiments (along with entire division of Gen. Edward Johnson) were decimated at the Battle of Spotsylvania. Only then were the regiments transferred into Cox's Brigade (all North Carolinians), where they served out the remainder of the war.

This grievance was keenly felt by the NC officers at the time, and they were still complaining about it 35 years later when the official regimental histories were written.

 

[Bruce Vail]

Yes that is the correct link. Michael Honey argues that most North Carolinians were not in favor of the war and Confederate supporters used heavy voter intimidation. Honey also argues General Lee was doubtful on the loyalty of North Carolina troops.
Leftyhunter

Lee was doubtful of the loyalty of NC troops?

I don't think that is true. Is there any contemporaneous correspondence, or credible memoir by any of Lee's officers, to back this up?

 

[Bruce Vail]

North Carolina was long known as: "a vale of humility between two mountains of conceit" -- Virginia and South Carolina.

NCPedia says the phrase was first used in 1900:

http://www.ncpedia.org/vale-humility-between-two-mountains

I was always under the impression it was much older than that.

 

[uaskme]

NC had every incentive to support ANV. They kept the Yankees out of NC. The interior, from Wilmington West remained calm until spring of 65.

Succession of the Upper South was much different from the Lower. After Sumter people were trying to decide what the best course for survival was. People
who were Unionist weren't Yankee and sure didn't want to be invaded.

Quaker Population supported their own Slave Underground Railroad. People fought for different
Reasons. Fighting for the ability to maybe have a house
Servant some day was way down the list.

 

[leftyhunter]

NC had every incentive to support ANV. They kept the Yankees out of NC. The interior, from Wilmington West remained calm until spring of 65.

Succession of the Upper South was much different from the Lower. After Sumter people were trying to decide what the best course for survival was. People
who were Unionist weren't Yankee and sure didn't want to be invaded.

Quaker Population supported their own Slave Underground Railroad. People fought for different
Reasons. Fighting for the ability to maybe have a house
Servant some day was way down the list.

Honey shows that especially by 1864 many people in North Carolina were actively resisting the Confederacy. Confederate control of many counties dissolved. Vance admitted that the Confederate cause was not popular.
Leftyhunter

 

[19thGeorgia]

Honey shows that especially by 1864 many people in North Carolina were actively resisting the Confederacy. Confederate control of many counties dissolved. Vance admitted that the Confederate cause was not popular.
Leftyhunter

It's been the fad now for some 30-40 years to exaggerate the "resistance" within the Confederacy- Southern Unionists, women rioters, slave insurrections, etc. None of this ever became or even posed an existential threat to the CSA. The South lost because of a limited amount of men and resources...and having to build a navy from scratch. The Stephanie McCurry's of the world are wrong.

 

[CSA Today]

NC had every incentive to support ANV. They kept the Yankees out of NC. The interior, from Wilmington West remained calm until spring of 65.

Succession of the Upper South was much different from the Lower. After Sumter people were trying to decide what the best course for survival was. People
who were Unionist weren't Yankee and sure didn't want to be invaded.

Quaker Population supported their own Slave Underground Railroad. People fought for different
Reasons. Fighting for the ability to maybe have a house
Servant some day was way down the list.

True, despite Governor Vance's complaints that Richmond left North Carolina unprotected, the fact is until 1865 the state was one of the most Yankee free in the Confederacy. Until 1865, when Fort Fisher fell and Sherman entered the state the enemy was largely confined to a few coastal enclaves with New Bern being the most notable. In the vulnerable western mountains of the state, the threat was the occasional raid by two small unionist regiments.