The war within the Confederacy

[CSA Today]

NCPedia says the phrase was first used in 1900:

http://www.ncpedia.org/vale-humility-between-two-mountains

I was always under the impression it was much older than that.

I thought it went back further than that. In any case, Virginians had taken a dim view of the more plebeian North Carolinian as far back as the 1600s when Virginia Governor William Berkeley made an observation something to the effect that North Carolinians ate so much corn and pork that they had "taken on a swinish appearance."

 

[O' Be Joyful]

It's been the fad now for some 30-40 years to exaggerate the "resistance" within the Confederacy- Southern Unionists, women rioters, slave insurrections, etc. None of this ever became or even posed an existential threat to the CSA. The South lost because of a limited amount of men and resources...and having to build a navy from scratch. The Stephanie McCurry's of the world are wrong.

You seem extremely confident in your position. Some may think that you are just "Whistlin' Dixie"

 

[jgoodguy]

It's been the fad now for some 30-40 years to exaggerate the "resistance" within the Confederacy- Southern Unionists, women rioters, slave insurrections, etc. None of this ever became or even posed an existential threat to the CSA. The South lost because of a limited amount of men and resources...and having to build a navy from scratch. The Stephanie McCurry's of the world are wrong.

Really?

So if the resources consumed by all of those factors been directed toward the CSA war effort instead of wasted or worst suppressed at great cost, then the CSA would have still for sure lost?

There is a fad and exaggeration somewhere for sure.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

Really?

So if the resources consumed by all of those factors been directed toward the CSA war effort instead of wasted or worst suppressed at great cost, then the CSA would have still for sure lost?

There is a fad and exaggeration somewhere for sure.

Like blame, there is plenty of exaggeration to go around...on both sides. Many see any counter view to their position as an automatic attack without taking into consideration that some points may be painfully true. Many of my own views have changed, some easier than others, since discovering this site.

 

[CSA Today]

In my readings on the history of the 1st and 3rd NC Infantry Regiments I learned that officers of those two units complained for years that they were not brigaded together with other NC regiments under a NC-native commanding officer. They lobbied Gov. Vance to pressure Gen. Lee to get the change made. None of this had any effect until May 1864, when these two regiments (along with entire division of Gen. Edward Johnson) were decimated at the Battle of Spotsylvania. Only then were the regiments transferred into Cox's Brigade (all North Carolinians), where they served out the remainder of the war.

This grievance was keenly felt by the NC officers at the time, and they were still complaining about it 35 years later when the official regimental histories were written.

One problem was that North Carolina had no military academy that compared to VMI in Virginia or The Citadel in South Carolina. I don't think either Lee or Davis had any special prejudice against North Carolinians leading regiment rather it was an opinion there were not a sufficient number with military experience that made them qualified – opinions of Richmond newspapers notwithstanding. Governor Vance, who complained vociferously against out of state commanders (especially Virginians) had himself been the first colonel of the 26th North Carolina despite having no real past military experience.

 

[Bruce Vail]

One problem was that North Carolina had no military academy that compared to VMI in Virginia or The Citadel in South Carolina. I don't think either Lee or Davis had any special prejudice against North Carolinians leading regiment rather it was an opinion there were not a sufficient number with military experience that made them qualified – opinions of Richmond newspapers notwithstanding. Governor Vance, who complained vociferously against out of state commanders (especially Virginians) had himself been the first colonel of the 26th North Carolina despite having no real past military experience.

I believe you are correct. What's missing from Vance's complaints are the names of North Carolina officers denied promotion because of prejudice against NC by Lee or Davis. I am not aware of any.

I'd be interested in any concrete examples if any CWT folk out there know of any...

 

[CSA Today]

It's been the fad now for some 30-40 years to exaggerate the "resistance" within the Confederacy- Southern Unionists, women rioters, slave insurrections, etc. None of this ever became or even posed an existential threat to the CSA. The South lost because of a limited amount of men and resources...and having to build a navy from scratch. The Stephanie McCurry's of the world are wrong.

Native unionists were the least of the Confederate problem in most states. If not for a penchant for plunder, they would have been a joke in North Carolina. There will always book writers to sate the interest of the gullible.

"Although the 'Buffaloes' considered themselves Union men, very few ever did any fighting. Their activities were confined primarily to robbery and pillage. When the Federal authorities 'called them to the field, most of them took to the woods' instead."

 

[jgoodguy]

Like blame, there is plenty of exaggeration to go around...on both sides. Many see any counter view to their position as an automatic attack without taking into consideration that some points may be painfully true. Many of my own views have changed, some easier than others, since discovering this site.

IMHO the margin of victory for the CSA was painfully small with little room for error. The CSA then proceed with many unforced errors as well as much loss of resources by resistance and consumption of resources dealing with resistance. Whatever hope the CSA had was frittered away.

 

[uaskme]

One problem was that North Carolina had no military academy that compared to VMI in Virginia or The Citadel in South Carolina. I don't think either Lee or Davis had any special prejudice against North Carolinians leading regiment rather it was an opinion there were not a sufficient number with military experience that made them qualified – opinions of Richmond newspapers notwithstanding. Governor Vance, who complained vociferously against out of state commanders (especially Virginians) had himself been the first colonel of the 26th North Carolina despite having no real past military experience.

I hate to bring it up. NC had 2 Influencial Military Native Sons. Bishop Pope and Bragg. Bragg returned to his home State in time to Surrender Ft Fisher and Eastern NC. Pope luckily didn't make it that long. I'm a Tar Heel, not throwing Rocks.

Confederate Nationalism didn't last but maybe a year. Vance was a Great Governor and was re-elected after the Civil War. He was adaptive. NC invested in its own Blockade Runners. Which were effective until late in the War. He had Cards, used to process cotton
And wool brought in from England so Citizens
Could make their oun cloth. NC outfitted and made
Uniforms for it's Troops. The Western part of the State was never Politically connected to the rest of the State. RR stopped at Morganton. For a Reason. Coastal areas, Outer Banks were in a World of their own.

There is no one size fits all for the South or North. People fought or didn't for their own Reasons. Not every Yankee Joined the Army. That is why Yankees bribed Immigrants and signed up Blacks.

 

[Bruce Vail]

It's been the fad now for some 30-40 years to exaggerate the "resistance" within the Confederacy- Southern Unionists, women rioters, slave insurrections, etc. None of this ever became or even posed an existential threat to the CSA. The South lost because of a limited amount of men and resources...and having to build a navy from scratch. The Stephanie McCurry's of the world are wrong.

No, this is wrong. That many writers of the last 40 years focus on domestic resistance to the Confederacy is merely a reflection of the fact that it was a long-overlooked element of the wartime experience. It is in the nature of historical writing to attempt to illuminate the heretofore darker corners of history.

There will always be handful of writers and polemicists who go way overboard in revising history, but we shouldn't worry too much about them. Time tends to weed them out of serious discussion.

I, for one, am looking forward to a revival of interest in the Northern Copperheads. Always reviled by pro-Union writers, and generally ignored by pro-Confederates, the Copperheads deserve some new attention by modern historians.

 

[CSA Today]

I hate to bring it up. NC had 2 Influencial Military Native Sons. Bishop Pope and Bragg. Bragg returned to his home State in time to Surrender Ft Fisher and Eastern NC. Pope luckily didn't make it that long. I'm a Tar Heel, not throwing Rocks.

Confederate Nationalism didn't last but maybe a year. Vance was a Great Governor and was re-elected after the Civil War. He was adaptive. NC invested in its own Blockade Runners. Which were effective until late in the War. He had Cards, used to process cotton
And wool brought in from England so Citizens
Could make their oun cloth. NC outfitted and made
Uniforms for it's Troops. The Western part of the State was never Politically connected to the rest of the State. RR stopped at Morganton. For a Reason. Coastal areas, Outer Banks were in a World of their own.

There is no one size fits all for the South or North. People fought or didn't for their own Reasons. Not every Yankee Joined the Army. That is why Yankees bribed Immigrants and signed up Blacks.

Every state has its black sheep. There is a persistent [I hope pernicious] rumor among some in the western part of the state that Abraham Lincoln was born there.

 

[jgoodguy]

No, this is wrong. That many writers of the last 40 years focus on domestic resistance to the Confederacy is merely a reflection of the fact that it was a long-overlooked element of the wartime experience. It is in the nature of historical writing to attempt to illuminate the heretofore darker corners of history.

Good point.

There will always be handful of writers and polemicists who go way overboard in revising history, but we shouldn't worry too much about them. Time tends to weed them out of serious discussion.

Always been so, but part of the ecology to speak to drive interest and conflict(and sell books, generate speaker fees...).

I, for one, am looking forward to a revival of interest in the Northern Copperheads. Always reviled by pro-Union writers, and generally ignored by pro-Confederates, the Copperheads deserve some new attention by modern historians.

You can always start a lets discuss copperheads thread here. See what falls out.


I did find this book in a casual Google search. It did not show up in a CWT site search.

Civil War in the North Carolina Quaker Belt: The Confederate Campaign Against Peace Agitators, Deserters and Draft Dodgers
Jan 8, 2014
by William T. Auman

 

[O' Be Joyful]

IMHO the margin of victory for the CSA was painfully small with little room for error. The CSA then proceed with many unforced errors as well as much loss of resources by resistance and consumption of resources dealing with resistance. Whatever hope the CSA had was frittered away.

I very much agree. I, tactfully, declined to express which side I believe exaggerates more. I think anyone who has any knowledge of some of my recent posts knows that I consider certain positions to be a "lost cause"(hint). But, that does not mean I will reflexively disregard any "evidence" they may present, it usually will dig their hole deeper in my eyes.

 

[Bruce Vail]

Good point.

Always been so, but part of the ecology to speak to drive interest and conflict(and sell books, generate speaker fees...).

You can always start a lets discuss copperheads thread here. See what falls out.


I did find this book in a casual Google search. It did not show up in a CWT site search.
View attachment 139170

Civil War in the North Carolina Quaker Belt: The Confederate Campaign Against Peace Agitators, Deserters and Draft Dodgers
Jan 8, 2014
by William T. Auman

I must admit to disgraceful ignorance. The very existence of a North Carolina Quaker Belt is entirely new to me.

I'll start a thread soon...

 

[jgoodguy]

I must admit to disgraceful ignorance. The very existence of a North Carolina Quaker Belt is entirely new to me.

I was similarly disgraced. Why I like chasing rabbits, no telling what one finds. I was chasing Copperheads and found NC Quakers.

 

[CSA Today]

I must admit to disgraceful ignorance. The very existence of a North Carolina Quaker Belt is entirely new to me.

I'll start a thread soon...

Neither have I. There were Quakers in North Carolina especially around what is now the Winton Salem area. But I took a graduate course in NC history and taught it for 5 years and I never read or heard of a whole belt of them.

 

[Bruce Vail]

I very much agree. I, tactfully, declined to express which side I believe exaggerates more. I think anyone who has any knowledge of some of my recent posts knows that I consider certain positions to be a "lost cause"(hint). But, that does not mean I will reflexively disregard any "evidence" they may present, it usually will dig their hole deeper in my eyes.

I agree with both of you that the margin for victory for the CSA was painfully thin, but I doubt that also means the CSA would have prevailed had there been less domestic opposition. It is far more likely that a better unified and more efficiently organized Confederacy would simply have lasted a year or two longer than it actually did. Abraham Lincoln was a very determined man.

 

[wausaubob]

Southern resistance.
1. If Kentucky had seceded, there may not have been a Civil War. But despite having 225,000 slaves in the state, ties to the Union were stronger.
2. The counties that eventually formed West Virginia contained approximately 18,000 slaves, it was very easy for General McClellan to operate there. The counties were separated from the rest of Virginia and were held fairly easily.

If there had actually been a solid Confederate sentiment in the 15 slave states, there would have been no war, at that time.

What happened in these states set the pattern for what happened in Tennessee, the sea islands of North Carolina, New Orleans, even no. Alabama. Places were the voters had voted for Douglas or Bell, were easily occupied by the U.S.

 

[WJC]

Is not the term Solid South refering more to the fact that the majority of the states always voted Democrat after the war?

Yes. It was the result of a conscious political strategy of FDR.

 

[CSA Today]

Yes that is the correct link. Michael Honey argues that most North Carolinians were not in favor of the war and Confederate supporters used heavy voter intimidation. Honey also argues General Lee was doubtful on the loyalty of North Carolina troops.
Leftyhunter

Taking Michael Honey seriously for an unbiased view on anything to do with the Confederacy would be about as credible as going to David Duke for information on the Civil Rights movement.

http://faculty.washington.edu/mhoney/