HF The Rain Crow

[Stbrd]

I can see why bees was a tough to write, but loved the description of the hives, and the line 'faded to dingy nothingness/I also felt', and how it framed Lorena.

Good on your CEO to push you to write the story.

About tough sells: everything is a tough sell right now. The market is saturated, visibility is a constant challenge, and writers often find themselves at the mercy of the algorithm gods. Meanwhile, reading is on the decline and attention spans are shrinking. It is tough for everyone, traditional and indie.

When I first began working on GE, I shared the logline with a few friends. The response was positive, but a couple of them wondered whether setting the story during the CW might limit its market potential. Their concern was that the shelves were already crowded with CW novels. The sense was that nearly everything that can be said about that specific point in history has been said many times over.

I don't see it that way.

I think about it like a tapestry. From a distance, we see the full image, but that image is made up of thousands of individual threads and each thread is its own story. To me, there are still countless threads left to explore. And those are the stories that still need, and deserve, to be told, no matter what side of the fence, so I hope you give in to the nudge.

I like your timeline approach.

I don't do any research before I start writing. I usually have no idea where the story is going, how it ends, or even much about the characters until I start putting words down. Once the first draft is done, that's when the real work begins: peeling back layers, digging into the characters, and cutting out all the clutter. I then print each chapter and go through it, figuring out what needs more research/sensory details.

Oops, didn't mean writing to trends. Do you think about the market when you write? How do you go from a niche genre to something more mainstream and a wider pool of readers.

Best of luck with your high fantasy!

Haven't written a script in a couple of years. After my agent passed away, I shifted my full focus to writing novels. But I do love the script format. I love the brainstorming, the buzz that builds around a project, and that shared passion for film and storytelling.

My writing – I'm just hoping my timing is better this time around. I had a YA dystopian, MASKERS, out on submission right as COVID hit, and that really derailed it. I also have a MG fantasy on the shelf. MG has been a tough market for a while, though it does seem like it might be starting to pick up again.

GE (the CW one) is ready for its final pass. I'm currently working on two mainstream projects, one rooted in legend, and the other with a CW soldier connection, though that element is just a small part of the overall story.

 

[JulieWeathers]

I can see why bees was a tough to write, but loved the description of the hives, and the line 'faded to dingy nothingness/I also felt', and how it framed Lorena.

Good on your CEO to push you to write the story.

About tough sells: everything is a tough sell right now. The market is saturated, visibility is a constant challenge, and writers often find themselves at the mercy of the algorithm gods. Meanwhile, reading is on the decline and attention spans are shrinking. It is tough for everyone, traditional and indie.

When I first began working on GE, I shared the logline with a few friends. The response was positive, but a couple of them wondered whether setting the story during the CW might limit its market potential. Their concern was that the shelves were already crowded with CW novels. The sense was that nearly everything that can be said about that specific point in history has been said many times over.

I don't see it that way.

I think about it like a tapestry. From a distance, we see the full image, but that image is made up of thousands of individual threads and each thread is its own story. To me, there are still countless threads left to explore. And those are the stories that still need, and deserve, to be told, no matter what side of the fence, so I hope you give in to the nudge.

I like your timeline approach.

I don't do any research before I start writing. I usually have no idea where the story is going, how it ends, or even much about the characters until I start putting words down. Once the first draft is done, that's when the real work begins: peeling back layers, digging into the characters, and cutting out all the clutter. I then print each chapter and go through it, figuring out what needs more research/sensory details.

Oops, didn't mean writing to trends. Do you think about the market when you write? How do you go from a niche genre to something more mainstream and a wider pool of readers.

Best of luck with your high fantasy!

Haven't written a script in a couple of years. After my agent passed away, I shifted my full focus to writing novels. But I do love the script format. I love the brainstorming, the buzz that builds around a project, and that shared passion for film and storytelling.

My writing – I'm just hoping my timing is better this time around. I had a YA dystopian, MASKERS, out on submission right as COVID hit, and that really derailed it. I also have a MG fantasy on the shelf. MG has been a tough market for a while, though it does seem like it might be starting to pick up again.

GE (the CW one) is ready for its final pass. I'm currently working on two mainstream projects, one rooted in legend, and the other with a CW soldier connection, though that element is just a small part of the overall story.

There's so much to address here. I hope people don't bop us over the head, but I think it is CW related.

I can see why bees was a tough to write, but loved the description of the hives, and the line 'faded to dingy nothingness/I also felt', and how it framed Lorena.

In writing emotional scenes, as you know, the trick is to not describe it but let the reader live it. A prime example is Hemingway's very short story: "For sale, Baby shoes, Never Worn."
He doesn't need to say another word to convey the emotion.

When I first began working on GE, I shared the logline with a few friends. The response was positive, but a couple of them wondered whether setting the story during the CW might limit its market potential. Their concern was that the shelves were already crowded with CW novels. The sense was that nearly everything that can be said about that specific point in history has been said many times over.

Phfft. If a person was going to write about the CW in general, maybe, but good stories are about people. Do you mind sharing your log line?

Not to offend anyone, but I have a picture of a bookstore section. On one shelf is: "Books about Texas." On the next shelf is: "Books about other states." I'm sure if you went to any bookstore in any state it would be similar. I don't know. A lot has been written about Texas. The point is, new books about Texas will still be written and someday, someone is going to find a character who is going to grab people by the throat and the rush will be on again.

It's like the Anne Rice vampire craze. I know whereof I speak here. Agents afterward specifically put in their submission page: NO VAMPIRES! Then what happened? Along comes Twilight and the vampire craze is on again.

I think about it like a tapestry. From a distance, we see the full image, but that image is made up of thousands of individual threads and each thread is its own story. To me, there are still countless threads left to explore. And those are the stories that still need, and deserve, to be told, no matter what side of the fence, so I hope you give in to the nudge.

Bingo. I kind of know where the story is going, should it continue. There would be some lesser known aspects explored. As always, it has to be written in the context of history. I'm not going to have vampire hunters, well maybe, and aliens. (Have you seen those awesome vampire hunter kits!) I like the characters and they have more living to do. We'll see. It's always about bringing people to life and they don't have to be famous people to be interesting people.

Oops, didn't mean writing to trends. Do you think about the market when you write? How do you go from a niche genre to something more mainstream and a wider pool of readers.

We were discussing this on TheLitforum.com. It's a really slippery slope. One woman who wrote a YA fantasy that had an Asian flavor to it, almost Chinese. People started throwing a fit because she had slaves in her fantasy. She wound up bowing to the pressure and pulled the book. I think she rewrote it to please the masses.

That was a massive mistake in my opinion. Don't give the mob a can of gasoline when they're already at your gate with pitchforks and torches.

The first editor who looked at Rain Crow had very progressive views and it showed in her editing. She thought it was a Lost Cause story and wouldn't sell well. Could I think about having them switch sides? They could see the error of their ways and fight for what was right. I said I would print it out and use it for wallpaper before I would destroy the story to try to appeal to "the market."

The second editor recommended by my publisher said she probably wouldn't take the book due to subject content. The publisher warned me that this woman was her top pick for editor, but there was a good chance she wouldn't take it. L agreed to at least take a look at it. She wanted a substantial part of the book, and this is a long book.

I didn't hear anything from her for nearly three weeks. I knew she had other projects, but I figured she looked at RC and didn't like what she saw. She set it aside and went on with her life.

Finally, the publisher nudged her to at least answer me.

L apologized profusely. Yes, she would take the book. She started reading and had to keep going. Then she went back and started editing and forgot to email me and tell me she'd take the job.

L did a lot of deep diving, but not one time did she suggest I change this or that to make it more appealing to the market. God bless her.

I think you should take another look at shopping your projects.

Cycles change. You never know what's going to appeal to someone.

I went with Heart Ally Books for Far Rider, the fantasy. I shopped it before and had a very high full request rate on it, but it had a fatal flaw. A very good agent finally told me what I had was YA with adult content and it was dead on arrival but he loved the book. Rewrite and send it back. Also, he wanted my CW when it was done. It would go to him first. I didn't have any desire to turn FR into a YA. I did send him Rain Crow, but the timing was very bad as everything Confederate was poison by then. He rejected it saying he doesn't handle historicals. (I laughed.) So, when I did finish rewriting Far Rider, I gave it to the publisher who had Rain Crow. I liked how she handled the book and didn't feel like battling agents again.

I'll probably get back in the query trenches for the women's fiction that is almost finished and the historical that is on deck.

It's an interesting business.

I wish you much success on your projects.

Sigh, I try to get in a thousand new words a day. I did that with here, but, alas, it wasn't on a project.

Forgive my vomiting words at you.

Julie

 

[Stbrd]

There's so much to address here. I hope people don't bop us over the head, but I think it is CW related.



In writing emotional scenes, as you know, the trick is to not describe it but let the reader live it. A prime example is Hemingway's very short story: "For sale, Baby shoes, Never Worn."
He doesn't need to say another word to convey the emotion.



Phfft. If a person was going to write about the CW in general, maybe, but good stories are about people. Do you mind sharing your log line?

Not to offend anyone, but I have a picture of a bookstore section. On one shelf is: "Books about Texas." On the next shelf is: "Books about other states." I'm sure if you went to any bookstore in any state it would be similar. I don't know. A lot has been written about Texas. The point is, new books about Texas will still be written and someday, someone is going to find a character who is going to grab people by the throat and the rush will be on again.

It's like the Anne Rice vampire craze. I know whereof I speak here. Agents afterward specifically put in their submission page: NO VAMPIRES! Then what happened? Along comes Twilight and the vampire craze is on again.



Bingo. I kind of know where the story is going, should it continue. There would be some lesser known aspects explored. As always, it has to be written in the context of history. I'm not going to have vampire hunters, well maybe, and aliens. (Have you seen those awesome vampire hunter kits!) I like the characters and they have more living to do. We'll see. It's always about bringing people to life and they don't have to be famous people to be interesting people.



We were discussing this on TheLitforum.com. It's a really slippery slope. One woman who wrote a YA fantasy that had an Asian flavor to it, almost Chinese. People started throwing a fit because she had slaves in her fantasy. She wound up bowing to the pressure and pulled the book. I think she rewrote it to please the masses.

That was a massive mistake in my opinion. Don't give the mob a can of gasoline when they're already at your gate with pitchforks and torches.

The first editor who looked at Rain Crow had very progressive views and it showed in her editing. She thought it was a Lost Cause story and wouldn't sell well. Could I think about having them switch sides? They could see the error of their ways and fight for what was right. I said I would print it out and use it for wallpaper before I would destroy the story to try to appeal to "the market."

The second editor recommended by my publisher said she probably wouldn't take the book due to subject content. The publisher warned me that this woman was her top pick for editor, but there was a good chance she wouldn't take it. L agreed to at least take a look at it. She wanted a substantial part of the book, and this is a long book.

I didn't hear anything from her for nearly three weeks. I knew she had other projects, but I figured she looked at RC and didn't like what she saw. She set it aside and went on with her life.

Finally, the publisher nudged her to at least answer me.

L apologized profusely. Yes, she would take the book. She started reading and had to keep going. Then she went back and started editing and forgot to email me and tell me she'd take the job.

L did a lot of deep diving, but not one time did she suggest I change this or that to make it more appealing to the market. God bless her.

I think you should take another look at shopping your projects.

Cycles change. You never know what's going to appeal to someone.

I went with Heart Ally Books for Far Rider, the fantasy. I shopped it before and had a very high full request rate on it, but it had a fatal flaw. A very good agent finally told me what I had was YA with adult content and it was dead on arrival but he loved the book. Rewrite and send it back. Also, he wanted my CW when it was done. It would go to him first. I didn't have any desire to turn FR into a YA. I did send him Rain Crow, but the timing was very bad as everything Confederate was poison by then. He rejected it saying he doesn't handle historicals. (I laughed.) So, when I did finish rewriting Far Rider, I gave it to the publisher who had Rain Crow. I liked how she handled the book and didn't feel like battling agents again.

I'll probably get back in the query trenches for the women's fiction that is almost finished and the historical that is on deck.

It's an interesting business.

I wish you much success on your projects.

Sigh, I try to get in a thousand new words a day. I did that with here, but, alas, it wasn't on a project.

Forgive my vomiting words at you.

Julie

I have never seen that flash fiction by Hemingway. That is an emotional punch and goes to prove, less is more. Thanks for sharing.


Logline:A Union soldier teams with Confederates to hunt a brutal killer, until he realizes he may be the greater threat.


I don't outline or map out the story's direction beforehand. Writing the logline was simply my way of taking the first step into the world, feeling out its tone and energy, and getting feedback on whether it resonated HC. Basically, what do you think, is this too weak/stupid or does it have some potential. That's just part of the process. I really don't have a clue about where the story will begin or end. I'll start writing and think I'm headed in one direction when – nope, not going that way. Sorry. Story detour on your left.

That's the great thing about being a pantser. When you start writing, the real bones of the story begin to take shape. You might think you're building a bear, but it turns out you're building a whale.


Everything is cyclical. Thanks to Sinners, vamps are once again starting to fang up interest.


Those vamp kits are fascinating, and I know my sister would love one. She's part of the reason I double-dunked the posts. I was trying to clean up my word rambles before hitting post, while also texting her and jumping back and forth in chat. Note to self: multitasking is overrated. Don't multi-reply.


Still, the mere mention of vampire kits and the CW makes me wonder — I mean, there were 19th-century vamp hunters, and now I'm thinking about how that could be framed either as historical thriller or horror, and I have a dozen scenarios running through my mind.


I agree. I'm not drawn to the tales of leaders, commanders, or kings and queens. Their stories matter, of course, but they've been told countless times. What fascinates me are the lesser-known stories, the ones on a smaller, more intimate scale.


And, yes, there's a lot of CW fiction out there, but that doesn't mean the well is dry. I'm sure this happens to every writer, you're digging through research, and suddenly ideas start pinging ~~ this could be a story, that could be a great story. It's those little, overlooked pockets of history, the small, strange, fascinating corners, that need to be told.


About the Asian YA fantasy. What? Who was throwing a fit? Members of the forum? That is insane and I hate hearing she caved and let others guide her story. I know there is a lot of nanny-gating in publishing and hall-monitor feedback that try to "correct" a story, but writers need to stand their ground. To thy story be true. You're right. Don't give in and change. There is an insightful book on this subject: That Book Is Dangerous!: How Moral Panic, Social Media, and the Culture Wars Are Remaking Publishing.


Basically editor 1 was saying that only one side's version of history should be told. I'm completely gobsmacked because history is far more complex than picking a side. It's never that clear-cut, and villainizing people or declaring the "error of their ways" is just ridiculous. I'm glad your second editor focused on the story itself rather than her personal politics.


When he said your fantasy should be rewrapped as YA, was that a few years ago when everyone was scrambling for YA?


No word vomit. Hearing about the experiences and challenges you've faced is interesting and insightful. I have a thousand war stories from this business myself. It's tough, hilarious, fascinating, and sometimes maddening, but it's also full of possibility. And there's nothing better than creating something that connects with others. That's the magic of storytelling.


Now I've got to shake vamp kits and the CW out of my brain and focus on the canyonlands. lol

 

[JulieWeathers]

Morning,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been battling with Chatgpt, which I use to hash out writing details. "Should I use a semi-colon here or an em dash?" Grammar is not my strong suit, alas. Lately, I've been building a lexicon for the fantasy and it's tremendously useful for that...if it didn't keep misplacing the file and swearing it doesn't exist.

So, anyway, I'm pulling important conversations off and storing them elsewhere and getting rid of Chat. I won't be doing anything more on the Philipi Races, so I can deep six that conversation. I asked it to export the files, but it's mostly code. I'm sure this is pilot error on my part. I'm not unpacking the files right. It's been mind-numbingly frustrating.

But, back to the task at hand.

Logline:A Union soldier teams with Confederates to hunt a brutal killer, until he realizes he may be the greater threat.

Old brain here, so this is probably plain to everyone else. Who is the greater threat? Other than that, it's an interesting hook.

That's the great thing about being a pantser. When you start writing, the real bones of the story begin to take shape. You might think you're building a bear, but it turns out you're building a whale.

True. I usually know where my story will end for some reason. That being said, the end often gets kicked down the road and a new ending gets written. Hemingway wrote forty-nine endings to A Farewell to Arms. I'm sure I've mentioned that before. I have the new book with all the endings, so that will be interesting to read.

Openings are what I really struggle with because they are so important. Openings will keep a reader reading. Endings will keep a reader looking for the next book.

On the third day of their honeymoon, infamous environmental activist Stewie Woods and his new bride, Annabel Bellotti, were spiking trees in the forest when a cow exploded and blew them up. Until then, their marriage had been happy.--C.J. Box from A Savage Run.

This is absolutely one of my favorite openings. Of course, I'll keep reading, C.J. Don't disappoint me. He didn't for the most part.

Jeff Shaara's opening to Killer Angels pulls me in.

Those vamp kits are fascinating, and I know my sister would love one. She's part of the reason I double-dunked the posts. I was trying to clean up my word rambles before hitting post, while also texting her and jumping back and forth in chat. Note to self: multitasking is overrated. Don't multi-reply.

I identify. it's why I started writing replies in a word doc if they are lengthy and pasting them. My squirrel brain goes elsewhere and then I forget to hit reply and close the tab. Then I think, I know I replied to this post.

And, yes, there's a lot of CW fiction out there, but that doesn't mean the well is dry. I'm sure this happens to every writer, you're digging through research, and suddenly ideas start pinging ~~ this could be a story, that could be a great story. It's those little, overlooked pockets of history, the small, strange, fascinating corners, that need to be told.

That's exactly what happens. I put them in my "to write" file so I don't forget.

About the Asian YA fantasy. What? Who was throwing a fit? Members of the forum? That is insane and I hate hearing she caved and let others guide her story. I know there is a lot of nanny-gating in publishing and hall-monitor feedback that try to "correct" a story, but writers need to stand their ground. To thy story be true. You're right. Don't give in and change. There is an insightful book on this subject: That Book Is Dangerous!: How Moral Panic, Social Media, and the Culture Wars Are Remaking Publishing.

Oh, heavens no. The forum has strict rules about behavior. We critique work, but no one is allowed to be abusive or personal and some of these attacks got vicious. It was the YA community. They took to social media to destroy the young woman and she caved. I would have put up my Gonzales Flag and said, "Come ahead" before I bowed to that self-righteous mob of lemmings. Those YA readers can be downright explosive.

Basically editor 1 was saying that only one side's version of history should be told. I'm completely gobsmacked because history is far more complex than picking a side. It's never that clear-cut, and villainizing people or declaring the "error of their ways" is just ridiculous. I'm glad your second editor focused on the story itself rather than her personal politics.

Yup. She questioned me about one passage and said it would be triggering to people. I need to change it.

"It's a group of boys going fishing. What do you want me to call them? I don't think, "The young males saw them pushing that cow out when they was going fishing," is going to have quite the effect we're going for.

The second editor is a gem. As I've said, she has the fantasy now and her questions are all very germane. Although she did have me pondering my life and psyche with one comment. She almost stopped reading Rain Crow because she thought the villain was going to do really bad things she didn't want to read about. Then in Far Rider:

"To this point, it is interesting how you have woven through one bad person after the other, and each subsequent villain surpasses the previous one in evil....Anyway, you have a gift—or a skill, or maybe just a knack, but it's extremely well done."

I'm not sure writing bad guys well is a good reflection on my mind.

I have a scene written with the RC main character and Gen. Sherman who is headquartered at her farm. This is an instance of manipulating history to suit the story. Of course, he didn't stay there. It's a fictional place. But, he did stay at private farms so it's not like I have him watching aliens landing in the pasture. (This scene will be far down the road if other books are written, but I saw it and had to write it.)

I don't have a very favorable opinion of Sherman, but he was a multi-facted human. I don't intend to make him into Snidely Whiplash.

When he said your fantasy should be rewrapped as YA, was that a few years ago when everyone was scrambling for YA?

It's because the protagonist is sixteen when the book starts. It's a tough call. He's theoretically right, but I didn't have the fight in me to cut it down to 90,000 words. Even if I had, I already burned through my top sixty agents with it as high fantasy. They normally don't want to look at a manuscript again even if it's been substantially rewritten, and FR has been.

I hired an editor to help me cut it down before I gave up, but so much was chopped that the voice and story were gone. That's when I decided to shelve it. Then, the RC publisher said, "I've seen parts of this story already. It needs to be out there not sitting in a box. Forget about making it YA and go with your gut. It's high fantasy."

Now I've got to shake vamp kits and the CW out of my brain and focus on the canyonlands. lol

LOL Yes, I've had coffee and tea, but I need breakfast and to get some writing done.

I've been thinking. Which I like to do. While I was researching for the game company, I came across a story about some Confederate spies in an unusual area. This would fit in with the arc of the RC story. I haven't found a lot of information about them yet, so I may turn to the forums here to see if people can help me pick up the threads of that story. Do you think people would mind my brain picking?

That game, btw speaking of CW and vampire hunters, starts out in the Civil War. The beginning is heartbreakingly well written. The man has a gift. Then it veers off and becomes a vampire story. That was my job, writing vampire characters that would fit into this world.

Anyway, my best to you regarding your project. Don't give up on it.

Julie

 

[Stbrd]

Morning,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been battling with Chatgpt, which I use to hash out writing details. "Should I use a semi-colon here or an em dash?" Grammar is not my strong suit, alas. Lately, I've been building a lexicon for the fantasy and it's tremendously useful for that...if it didn't keep misplacing the file and swearing it doesn't exist.

So, anyway, I'm pulling important conversations off and storing them elsewhere and getting rid of Chat. I won't be doing anything more on the Philipi Races, so I can deep six that conversation. I asked it to export the files, but it's mostly code. I'm sure this is pilot error on my part. I'm not unpacking the files right. It's been mind-numbingly frustrating.

But, back to the task at hand.



Old brain here, so this is probably plain to everyone else. Who is the greater threat? Other than that, it's an interesting hook.



True. I usually know where my story will end for some reason. That being said, the end often gets kicked down the road and a new ending gets written. Hemingway wrote forty-nine endings to A Farewell to Arms. I'm sure I've mentioned that before. I have the new book with all the endings, so that will be interesting to read.

Openings are what I really struggle with because they are so important. Openings will keep a reader reading. Endings will keep a reader looking for the next book.

On the third day of their honeymoon, infamous environmental activist Stewie Woods and his new bride, Annabel Bellotti, were spiking trees in the forest when a cow exploded and blew them up. Until then, their marriage had been happy.--C.J. Box from A Savage Run.

This is absolutely one of my favorite openings. Of course, I'll keep reading, C.J. Don't disappoint me. He didn't for the most part.

Jeff Shaara's opening to Killer Angels pulls me in.



I identify. it's why I started writing replies in a word doc if they are lengthy and pasting them. My squirrel brain goes elsewhere and then I forget to hit reply and close the tab. Then I think, I know I replied to this post.



That's exactly what happens. I put them in my "to write" file so I don't forget.



Oh, heavens no. The forum has strict rules about behavior. We critique work, but no one is allowed to be abusive or personal and some of these attacks got vicious. It was the YA community. They took to social media to destroy the young woman and she caved. I would have put up my Gonzales Flag and said, "Come ahead" before I bowed to that self-righteous mob of lemmings. Those YA readers can be downright explosive.



Yup. She questioned me about one passage and said it would be triggering to people. I need to change it.

"It's a group of boys going fishing. What do you want me to call them? I don't think, "The young males saw them pushing that cow out when they was going fishing," is going to have quite the effect we're going for.

The second editor is a gem. As I've said, she has the fantasy now and her questions are all very germane. Although she did have me pondering my life and psyche with one comment. She almost stopped reading Rain Crow because she thought the villain was going to do really bad things she didn't want to read about. Then in Far Rider:

"To this point, it is interesting how you have woven through one bad person after the other, and each subsequent villain surpasses the previous one in evil....Anyway, you have a gift—or a skill, or maybe just a knack, but it's extremely well done."

I'm not sure writing bad guys well is a good reflection on my mind.

I have a scene written with the RC main character and Gen. Sherman who is headquartered at her farm. This is an instance of manipulating history to suit the story. Of course, he didn't stay there. It's a fictional place. But, he did stay at private farms so it's not like I have him watching aliens landing in the pasture. (This scene will be far down the road if other books are written, but I saw it and had to write it.)

I don't have a very favorable opinion of Sherman, but he was a multi-facted human. I don't intend to make him into Snidely Whiplash.



It's because the protagonist is sixteen when the book starts. It's a tough call. He's theoretically right, but I didn't have the fight in me to cut it down to 90,000 words. Even if I had, I already burned through my top sixty agents with it as high fantasy. They normally don't want to look at a manuscript again even if it's been substantially rewritten, and FR has been.

I hired an editor to help me cut it down before I gave up, but so much was chopped that the voice and story were gone. That's when I decided to shelve it. Then, the RC publisher said, "I've seen parts of this story already. It needs to be out there not sitting in a box. Forget about making it YA and go with your gut. It's high fantasy."



LOL Yes, I've had coffee and tea, but I need breakfast and to get some writing done.

I've been thinking. Which I like to do. While I was researching for the game company, I came across a story about some Confederate spies in an unusual area. This would fit in with the arc of the RC story. I haven't found a lot of information about them yet, so I may turn to the forums here to see if people can help me pick up the threads of that story. Do you think people would mind my brain picking?

That game, btw speaking of CW and vampire hunters, starts out in the Civil War. The beginning is heartbreakingly well written. The man has a gift. Then it veers off and becomes a vampire story. That was my job, writing vampire characters that would fit into this world.

Anyway, my best to you regarding your project. Don't give up on it.

Julie

I have been watching The Gray House and have always loved Joffe's character-centric work (Killing Fields, The Mission, City of Joy) but not too sure about this one. I have only watched a a couple of episodes. We'll see. Though I do love seeing a Peaky Blinder in the cast. Have you seen it and, if so, what are your thoughts?

Have also been doing research ~ reading a couple more books on CW terrain/environment/weather and, today, received Villainous Compounds. That's a , 'Well, this looks interesting, think I'll get it not for research, but just to read' book.

Grammar isn't my strong suit either. I'm quite prolific at typos and dropping words. Chat is good for some question queries and emoji searches, but I used it this morning to try to identify a fruit and it came back as tomato, an orange, and then a grapefruit. It was a Jamaican tangelo (Ugli fruit).

You are much more organized than I am. I write longhand first and my filing system is basically shove it all into a box.

That logline was a quick way to get feedback for time/setting and story pulse. Would this work? Protag is the danger, and it turns out I wasn't building a bear but a whale. At the agency, loglines were a way to quickly assess concept and marketability.

For GE (CW story) all I knew was that the so-called enemies would have to join up with the protag. I knew the protag was a prickly pain-in-the-caboose. Everything that happens orbits around him. I knew he would be unpredictable, and other characters weren't quite sure how to peg him and would tend to fear him. He'd be a teeter-totter character.

And, when writing GE, three things were important: raw-grit characters, no funneling the history through a Norman Rockwell lens, and respect the history without restricting the story.

Openings. The first sentence. The first paragraph. The first page. The hook. Yes. One thousand percent, that is critical. And hook doesn't mean you have to start in the middle of an action scene. Even a quiet hook can pique a reader's curiosity. A good opening draws them in and keeps them reading because they want to find out what is happening, but that's often where writers trip up. Even with a brilliant story, they can lose readers in the very first pages by failing to immediately grab attention. While a few readers might stick around for a chapter or two, many won't, and though it is tough to find the right opening, there are ways to hone in and punch it up. I could go on at length about hooks, (from personal/ industry experience) but this isn't a writing forum and I'm yammering on writing too much.

People love to be cruel. Horrific that a writer faced so much backlash over nothing. I'm with you on the Gonzales flag.

Boys? She had issue with the word boys? I do know the historical context around the word and some of the implications, but that didn't apply to the excerpt you shared. Your intent was clear. I remember someone having to remove the word "bridge" because a sensitivity reader flagged it as a trigger word. I still don't have a clue as to why.

I love rich, fully realized villains, especially the kind who feel as layered and compelling as the protags. It sounds like FR has a whole cast of them. Since it's high fantasy, I'm curious, did you draw on any real historical events or periods as inspiration, the way George R. R. Martin did for GOT?

I deliberately avoided historical figures or real battles in GE. I don't feel I have the knowledge to portray them authentically. I hope you do write more RC books.

A protagonist who is sixteen when the book starts, is an automatic YA label? As far as word count, I miss when epics like Lonesome Dove and the big, sweeping novels by Michener, Clavell, John Jakes, and Jean Auel were standard, not exceptions.

Short can be great. But sometimes readers want deep dive reading. Every now and then a doorstop like Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell breaks through, but we need more of them. Fantasy still allows for heft, but some stories shouldn't have a word count straitjacket. Sometimes that scope is exactly what's needed to fully explore a world and its characters and allow the story to breathe. And I understand the production costs, etc. but can you imagine an agent/ editor telling Dickens, Tolstoy, or Hugo to cut it down?

Confederate spies operating in an unexpected place sounds interesting! This forum is full of remarkably knowledgeable people, and I'm sure many have a lot of insight to share.

Writing fangers for a game must have been a blast! Also, I forgot to say, I love that you have a bookshelf section photo labeled: Books about Texas/Books about other states. You're right. Books have been written about Texas, and there will always be another one, or one about a Texan, that will shake things up again. I'd love to see some of those stories start making waves sooner rather than later ~~

Thanks for the encouragement! I appreciate it!

 

[JulieWeathers]

I have been watching The Gray House and have always loved Joffe's character-centric work (Killing Fields, The Mission, City of Joy) but not too sure about this one. I have only watched a a couple of episodes. We'll see. Though I do love seeing a Peaky Blinder in the cast. Have you seen it and, if so, what are your thoughts?

Have also been doing research ~ reading a couple more books on CW terrain/environment/weather and, today, received Villainous Compounds. That's a , 'Well, this looks interesting, think I'll get it not for research, but just to read' book.

Grammar isn't my strong suit either. I'm quite prolific at typos and dropping words. Chat is good for some question queries and emoji searches, but I used it this morning to try to identify a fruit and it came back as tomato, an orange, and then a grapefruit. It was a Jamaican tangelo (Ugli fruit).

You are much more organized than I am. I write longhand first and my filing system is basically shove it all into a box.

That logline was a quick way to get feedback for time/setting and story pulse. Would this work? Protag is the danger, and it turns out I wasn't building a bear but a whale. At the agency, loglines were a way to quickly assess concept and marketability.

For GE (CW story) all I knew was that the so-called enemies would have to join up with the protag. I knew the protag was a prickly pain-in-the-caboose. Everything that happens orbits around him. I knew he would be unpredictable, and other characters weren't quite sure how to peg him and would tend to fear him. He'd be a teeter-totter character.

And, when writing GE, three things were important: raw-grit characters, no funneling the history through a Norman Rockwell lens, and respect the history without restricting the story.

Openings. The first sentence. The first paragraph. The first page. The hook. Yes. One thousand percent, that is critical. And hook doesn't mean you have to start in the middle of an action scene. Even a quiet hook can pique a reader's curiosity. A good opening draws them in and keeps them reading because they want to find out what is happening, but that's often where writers trip up. Even with a brilliant story, they can lose readers in the very first pages by failing to immediately grab attention. While a few readers might stick around for a chapter or two, many won't, and though it is tough to find the right opening, there are ways to hone in and punch it up. I could go on at length about hooks, (from personal/ industry experience) but this isn't a writing forum and I'm yammering on writing too much.

People love to be cruel. Horrific that a writer faced so much backlash over nothing. I'm with you on the Gonzales flag.

Boys? She had issue with the word boys? I do know the historical context around the word and some of the implications, but that didn't apply to the excerpt you shared. Your intent was clear. I remember someone having to remove the word "bridge" because a sensitivity reader flagged it as a trigger word. I still don't have a clue as to why.

I love rich, fully realized villains, especially the kind who feel as layered and compelling as the protags. It sounds like FR has a whole cast of them. Since it's high fantasy, I'm curious, did you draw on any real historical events or periods as inspiration, the way George R. R. Martin did for GOT?

I deliberately avoided historical figures or real battles in GE. I don't feel I have the knowledge to portray them authentically. I hope you do write more RC books.

A protagonist who is sixteen when the book starts, is an automatic YA label? As far as word count, I miss when epics like Lonesome Dove and the big, sweeping novels by Michener, Clavell, John Jakes, and Jean Auel were standard, not exceptions.

Short can be great. But sometimes readers want deep dive reading. Every now and then a doorstop like Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell breaks through, but we need more of them. Fantasy still allows for heft, but some stories shouldn't have a word count straitjacket. Sometimes that scope is exactly what's needed to fully explore a world and its characters and allow the story to breathe. And I understand the production costs, etc. but can you imagine an agent/ editor telling Dickens, Tolstoy, or Hugo to cut it down?

Confederate spies operating in an unexpected place sounds interesting! This forum is full of remarkably knowledgeable people, and I'm sure many have a lot of insight to share.

Writing fangers for a game must have been a blast! Also, I forgot to say, I love that you have a bookshelf section photo labeled: Books about Texas/Books about other states. You're right. Books have been written about Texas, and there will always be another one, or one about a Texan, that will shake things up again. I'd love to see some of those stories start making waves sooner rather than later ~~

Thanks for the encouragement! I appreciate it!

STBRD,

I have been watching The Gray House and have always loved Joffe's character-centric work (Killing Fields, The Mission, City of Joy) but not too sure about this one. I have only watched a a couple of episodes. We'll see. Though I do love seeing a Peaky Blinder in the cast. Have you seen it and, if so, what are your thoughts?

I watch very little tv. Most things I would be interested in, Hollywood destroys. The last thing I watched and really enjoyed was Professor T., a British show. Brilliant concept, acting, and writing. The dvd player is out for John Lee Hancock's The Alamo. March 6 marks the anniversary of the Alamo falling.

I'm going to start watching/re-watching more CW movies once I wrap up the current book I'm working on. That will be to get me back in the CW mindset and do some work on the sequel to RC, though my main focus will be on another historical. I always have two projects going at once so if I get in a plot knot, I can set that project aside and let the boys in the back work it out.

Have also been doing research ~ reading a couple more books on CW terrain/environment/weather and, today, received Villainous Compounds. That's a , 'Well, this looks interesting, think I'll get it not for research, but just to read' book

I bought a first edition of The Stonewall Ladies by Elizabeth Verner from Palmetto Books. The book was so carefully wrapped and shipped that I will buy more books from them if I get the chance. The book was recommended by someone here on the forum, so I am anxious to read it.

Villainous Compunds sounds interesting, I may...no, no, no. I am not buying any more books for a while.

Grammar isn't my strong suit either. I'm quite prolific at typos and dropping words. Chat is good for some question queries and emoji searches, but I used it this morning to try to identify a fruit and it came back as tomato, an orange, and then a grapefruit. It was a Jamaican tangelo (Ugli fruit).

AI can be good for a lot of things, but you have to verify everything. Just as we should about anything, really.

That logline was a quick way to get feedback for time/setting and story pulse. Would this work? Protag is the danger, and it turns out I wasn't building a bear but a whale. At the agency, loglines were a way to quickly assess concept and marketability.

A good logline is solid gold and so hard to do well. I have two good ones, I think, for my women's fiction and the historical, but it's hard for me. I usually wind up fiddling for weeks to get it right.

Openings. The first sentence. The first paragraph. The first page. The hook. Yes. One thousand percent, that is critical. And hook doesn't mean you have to start in the middle of an action scene.

Absolutely. Diana Gabaldon's opening to The Outlander is brilliant in my opinion. It gives a powerful but very quiet promise of something mysterious about to happen.

James Lee Burke usually has very good openings. Black Cherry Blues opens with an almost poetic description of the main character's wife peacefully sleeping. You're going right along seeing, hearing, smelling everything and it is so idyllic...until it isn't. It's a gut punch.

There are so many books that really nailed openings and, as you say, it doesn't have to start with killer action

People love to be cruel. Horrific that a writer faced so much backlash over nothing.

And it's easier now because they can do it from the safety of their keyboards. Then you get them piling on to see who can top the previous one with a witty comment and get some attention.

Boys? She had issue with the word boys?

She is a really good editor, and I would recommend her on merit. I would never take a CW book back to her. I'm not interested in being lectured on my "lost cause" book. RC isn't a lost cause book but, because it's told often from a Southern woman's pov, that makes it lost cause. She was constantly looking for things people might be offended by.

I had a writer friend who was also a rancher. She posted some pictures of the ranch and a gorgeous view of a mountain. Then she corrected herself, tongue in cheek, for those who might be offended on her behalf not knowing her background.

I love rich, fully realized villains, especially the kind who feel as layered and compelling as the protags. It sounds like FR has a whole cast of them. Since it's high fantasy, I'm curious, did you draw on any real historical events or periods as inspiration, the way George R. R. Martin did for GOT?

Yes and no. Martin drew heavily on the War of the Roses. I used a lot of historical and mythological stories to pull into my story somewhat like C.S. Lewis and Tolkien did. Even in fantasy, if its done right, I think the author needs to draw on enough real life things to make it believable. I combined ancient Sarmatians and Celts for one of my factions in the book.

I deliberately avoided historical figures or real battles in GE. I don't feel I have the knowledge to portray them authentically. I hope you do write more RC books.

I did a LOT of research. I'm sure I still got some things wrong and stitch counters will call me out if the book reaches a wide audience. I did the best I could to maintain integrity. On the next book, I may hire someone here to beta read it to catch historical glitches. That being said, it's a novel. Some things were deliberately changed for the story.

A protagonist who is sixteen when the book starts, is an automatic YA label? As far as word count, I miss when epics like Lonesome Dove and the big, sweeping novels by Michener, Clavell, John Jakes, and Jean Auel were standard, not exceptions.

So it's said regarding age, but the editor hasn't told me she thinks it would be better as YA. I agree about the big books, but then I like rich stories.

Every now and then a doorstop like Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell breaks through, but we need more of them.

Agreed and wasn't that a wonderful, imaginative story?

And I understand the production costs, etc. but can you imagine an agent/ editor telling Dickens, Tolstoy, or Hugo to cut it down?

Eh, we live in different times, but aren't we blessed to have been given those books?

Confederate spies operating in an unexpected place sounds interesting! This forum is full of remarkably knowledgeable people, and I'm sure many have a lot of insight to share.

The second book will continue the story already laid down. Quite a bit of it is already written. I think the third book will focus on a different character. While I was researching for the vampire game, I came across some stories of a Confederate spy ring in a completely different area. I think it would be a good story, if it's done right. I will be calling on the forum for help.

Y'all already saved my bacon over the attack on Germantown.

Writing fangers for a game must have been a blast!

It was, mainly because much of the focus was on the CW, but we also delved into all kinds of myths and legends. One story explored Viking wraiths. Another about a descendent of the Cherokee removal who was living during the CW. He gave me broad range to nose out interesting stories.

I do hope you continue writing. One trick I have is to commit myself to write 30 minutes a day. I get out my trusty antique hour glass (actually 30 minutes), flip it over, and start writing. If I'm still going strong, I'll flip it for another 30 minute session and keep going. I always stop while I still know what's going to happen next so I'm not starting cold the next day.

All my best wishes,

Julie

 

[Stbrd]

Julie,

I watch very little tv. Most things I would be interested in, Hollywood destroys. The last thing I watched and really enjoyed was Professor T., a British show. Brilliant concept, acting, and writing. The dvd player is out for John Lee Hancock's The Alamo. March 6 marks the anniversary of the Alamo falling.

I was curious if you had seen The Gray House because it tips into similiar story elements as Rain Crow. I stopped watching, though. It felt exaggerated, and a bit like a paint-by-numbers story. Maybe it picks up in later episodes, but I do like the opening credits music.

I've also been listening to Hollowbone's recent release, Civil War. The lyrics offer internal perspective from a Southern POV, which is especially interesting coming from a UK band.

Professor T looks like a UK Monk, so it sounds interesting. Will have to check it out.

I bought a first edition of The Stonewall Ladies by Elizabeth Verner from Palmetto Books. The book was so carefully wrapped and shipped that I will buy more books from them if I get the chance. The book was recommended by someone here on the forum, so I am anxious to read it.

I haven't heard of The Stonewall Ladies. I checked out Palmetto Books, and it looks like they're self-publishing? Too often books arrive damaged thanks to flimsy mailers, so I appreciate it when they are carefully packed and shipped.

A good logline is solid gold and so hard to do well. I have two good ones, I think, for my women's fiction and the historical, but it's hard for me. I usually wind up fiddling for weeks to get it right.

Loglines and taglines can be tricky to craft. Summarizing a book in one or two sentences isn't easy, but you're right, a strong logline is worth its weight in gold, and word choice is everything.

For instance, if I were writing a logline for a WIP, that has a thread tied to the CW (and this is a weak off-the-cuff example) it might read: Forty-five years after his wife vanished/disappeared in the canyons, a shocking DNA match reveals a secret meant to die with the past …. or should it be 'reveals a secret powerful enough to kill for'? Does the latter ramp up the stakes? Does "disappeared" land harder and evoke more mystery, or does "vanished" work better? Is the word 'shocking' overplaying the micro-pitch? Those choices matter when it comes to loglines. The tags would be something like: The dead remember, or The past is watching. So, yes, definitely hard to get right because both logline and tagline are key to igniting curiosity and interest. Then again sometimes, a great title does all the work—Cowboys & Aliens says it all.

But good to hear you have two solid ones. Is the historical CW related?

Absolutely. Diana Gabaldon's opening to The Outlander is brilliant in my opinion. It gives a powerful but very quiet promise of something mysterious about to happen.

I haven't read any of Diana's books yet, but I love time-travel stories, so I hope to fix that ASAP.

I'm not interested in being lectured on my "lost cause" book. RC isn't a lost cause book but, because it's told often from a Southern woman's pov, that makes it lost cause. She was constantly looking for things people might be offended by.

As for worrying about what others might find offensive, I like Ricky Gervais's take: "Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right."

I had a writer friend who was also a rancher. She posted some pictures of the ranch and a gorgeous view of a mountain. Then she corrected herself, tongue in cheek, for those who might be offended on her behalf not knowing her background.

Not sure why your rancher friend corrected herself with the pictures she posted?

I combined ancient Sarmatians and Celts for one of my factions in the book.

Sarmatians! The "Arthurian" Steppe nomads and the ancients of my paternal heritage.

I love folklore and mythology, but I usually create my own when needed because it gives me leeway as a writer. When I do use known folklore or mythology as a springboard, I try to put a new spin on the old and familiar.

I do hope you continue writing. One trick I have is to commit myself to write 30 minutes a day. I get out my trusty antique hour glass (actually 30 minutes), flip it over, and start writing. If I'm still going strong, I'll flip it for another 30 minute session and keep going. I always stop while I still know what's going to happen next so I'm not starting cold the next day.

I'm writing~~~juggling four projects, plus working on those with my writing partner. Good idea about stopping when you know what is going to happen.

Like the hourglass and you have some great books in the background!

 

[JulieWeathers]

Stbrd,

I'm sorry for the delay in responding. Life grabs you by the throat sometimes.

As I said, I don't watch much TV and hardly ever anything to do with the Civil War or westerns. Hollywood can seldom be trusted. I'm particular about what I read also, so maybe I'm just persnickety. I think Kari Lynn Dell is the only author I trust with western romance, but as I said before, she was a rancher.

I've also been listening to Hollowbone's recent release, Civil War. The lyrics offer internal perspective from a Southern POV, which is especially interesting coming from a UK band.

I listened to this, but had problems understanding the lyrics and can't find them. The Band, a Canadian group, wrote and played The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, one of my favorite songs. David Kincaid is an American artist, but he's done a lot of Civil War songs, especially regarding Irsh in the war. Free and Green is one of my favorites.

I haven't heard of The Stonewall Ladies. I checked out Palmetto Books, and it looks like they're self-publishing? Too often books arrive damaged thanks to flimsy mailers, so I appreciate it when they are carefully packed and shipped.

No, they aren't a publisher, though there is a Palmetto Publishing. I ordered through Abe Books as Amazon was being stupid again with prices.

or should it be 'reveals a secret powerful enough to kill for'? Does the latter ramp up the stakes? Does "disappeared" land harder and evoke more mystery, or does "vanished" work better? Is the word 'shocking' overplaying the micro-pitch? Those choices matter when it comes to loglines. The tags would be something like: The dead remember, or The past is watching.

"A secret powerful enough to kill for" is stronger, methinks. You have such a small window to make an impression with a log line that every words counts and power words are king.

I think a person has to be careful with generalizations and hype.

I sent my query to Janet Reid, an NY agent who used to have a popular query blog and offered a service to polish queries. She changed a few words and refused payment because she said she didn't do anything. She sent me on my way with, "Sometimes spies wear crinolines" needs to be in your pitch.

Crinolines over hoop skirts was chosen specifically for the cadence. Your ear often tells you what's right.

Another agent told me what my pitch for the historical was. We were just sitting in the bad shooting the bull and drinking when she asked me what I wrote. I told her. Then she asked what else I had. I told her about the historical and said, "It's sort of a western League of Their Own."

She said, "That's your pitch."

This book is about the early lady bronc riders.

I'll go back to the Civil War after I finish that.

I haven't read any of Diana's books yet, but I love time-travel stories, so I hope to fix that ASAP.

Diana's very good and is meticulous about research. I often grab one of her books and just start reading anywhere if my brain is stumbling in my writing. Sometimes just reading something well-written is enough to clear the log jam. Gabaldon, Hemingway, Poe, and Ambrose Bierce are my usual go to authors. Bierce wrote some wonderful Civil War stories. He's a master.

As for worrying about what others might find offensive, I like Ricky Gervais's take: "Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right."

I agree completely. The editor was very good and I would recommend her, just not on anything CW related.

Not sure why your rancher friend corrected herself with the pictures she posted?

She was amused that some people might be offended by the mountain's name. It was a subtle jab at people who are constantly offended.

Sarmatians! The "Arthurian" Steppe nomads and the ancients of my paternal heritage.

Well, that's interesting. They were fabulous horsemen.

I'm writing~~~juggling four projects, plus working on those with my writing partner. Good idea about stopping when you know what is going to happen.

Holy crow. You are busy.

Yep, I always stop when I know what's going to happen next.

The high fantasy that's with the editor already has an ending, of course, and I know how the next book starts.

I'm not sure about Rain Crow. Something will pop out at me when I start researching the CW again. I have to be tethered to history, so there's a hook there somewhere.

I got in 1,400 words last night on the women's fiction. It's nearly done. I stopped while I knew what happens next. The words were vomited, so I'll have to go back and do a lot of revising, but isn't that writing?

Like the hourglass and you have some great books in the background!

Thank you. Jackson the person fascinates me. I have no idea how he could still love so deeply after all he had experienced. Surviving the Confederacy was a great book, in my opinion. Oddly, Lee has moved down to the bottom shelf now and The Forgotten Irish. Jackson is still near, but his books are on the top shelf now.

I hope all is going well. Let me know how the projects are going.

Julie

 

[Stbrd]

Julie,


Hope your writing is going well!

As I said, I don't watch much TV and hardly ever anything to do with the Civil War or westerns. Hollywood can seldom be trusted. I'm particular about what I read also, so maybe I'm just persnickety. I think Kari Lynn Dell is the only author I trust with western romance, but as I said before, she was a rancher.

Hollywood is Hollywood. It is a profit-driven business based on entertainment. Entertainment being the key word. Films/streaming are targeted for mass appeal rather than a niche audience. For example, a spec focused on a CW battle might be shifted so the protagonist has a love interest to add emotional stakes. Instead of the battle being the climactic scene, the story gets bookended by the relationship: meet the love interest, go to battle, reunite with the love interest. Rinse and repeat. They're not wrong about trying to frame a story for broader commercial appeal, but sometimes that approach ends up alienating potential viewers.

I listened to this, but had problems understanding the lyrics and can't find them. The Band, a Canadian group, wrote and played The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, one of my favorite songs. David Kincaid is an American artist, but he's done a lot of Civil War songs, especially regarding Irsh in the war. Free and Green is one of my

I love "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" and have several versions by different artists on my playlist, along with "The Weight" and "Up on Cripple Creek" on other playlists. I hadn't heard of Kincaid before, but after listening, I'll be buying a couple of his songs.


Each of my writing projects has its own playlist~ for GE, along with soundtrack scores and period music, there's plenty of Phil Ley, The Steeldrivers ("Sticks that Made Thunder" is a favorite), Poor Man's Poison (my favorite version of "Wayfaring Stranger"), Dead South, Shane Smith & The Saints, Jack Savoretti's "Soldier's Eyes," among others.


I also have a story soundtrack ~ which is music born from my WIP ~ so when I'm writing, I can listen to the story through song. It's basically a playlist of my WIP, and it makes answering questions like "What is your protagonist like?" or "What's it about?" so much easier. All I have to say is, "Just have a listen."

No, they aren't a publisher, though there is a Palmetto Publishing. I ordered through Abe Books as Amazon was being stupid again with prices.

I'm a die-hard bibliophile with more books than shelf space, most of them non-fiction focused on history. I tend to favor 19th-century history books for their broader perspective and depth, so I appreciate their value. Still, some prices are crazy insane.

My great- aunt's book is listed on the Zon for three hundred. There is a copy with spine binding detached for sixty on another site, but her book would mainly appeal to those interested in regional history or for genealogical purposes, with (maybe) a slight draw for cowboy and western art lovers. I think a lot of resellers put sky-high prices on books not because of demand, but in hopes the right buyer will pay. But, because they are family, I do try to buy both her and her daughter's books when they pop up and budget allows, but three hundred? No way.

"A secret powerful enough to kill for" is stronger, methinks. You have such a small window to make an impression with a log line that every words counts and power words are king.

I think a person has to be careful with generalizations and hype.

That logline was far too generic. It would need a different angle, because loglines/tags have got to pop, especially in today's market when most of the books that gain traction lean toward high-concept with a film-ready structure.

I sent my query to Janet Reid, an NY agent who used to have a popular query blog and offered a service to polish queries. She changed a few words and refused payment because she said she didn't do anything. She sent me on my way with, "Sometimes spies wear crinolines" needs to be in your pitch.

Crinolines is snappy as well as giving the reader an immediate tether to the story and time.

Janet Reid. She was Query Shark, wasn't she?

This book is about the early lady bronc riders.

The Bronc Ladies sound intriguing!

Holy crow. You are busy.

I've always juggled multiple projects.

GE is the CW, while TBS has a CW veteran story anchor. The third project grounds itself in Arthurian history, focusing on the legend's historical side by drawing on Ancient Roman legions and horsemen. It is set in the present day and avoids all fantasy elements like Merlin, reincarnation, time travel, etc. The fourth is set in Ancient Imperial Rome with dual timelines, inspired by the question: what if you met a historical figure? It delves into the reality behind the legend, uncovers the truth behind key events, and examines how much history has been embellished or twisted over time.

I'm not sure about Rain Crow. Something will pop out at me when I start researching the CW again. I have to be tethered to history, so there's a hook there somewhere.

Will this circle around the hidden Confederate spies?

I got in 1,400 words last night on the women's fiction. It's nearly done. I stopped while I knew what happens next. The words were vomited, so I'll have to go back and do a lot of revising, but isn't that writing?

Word vomit is good when it comes to writing.

Thank you. Jackson the person fascinates me. I have no idea how he could still love so deeply after all he had experienced. Surviving the Confederacy was a great book, in my opinion. Oddly, Lee has moved down to the bottom shelf now and The Forgotten Irish. Jackson is still near, but his books are on the top shelf now.

Admittedly, I don't know much about Jackson and haven't read Surviving the Confederacy. It's always interesting to see other people's bookshelves and see what they're reading, especially when it comes to history. I definitely relate to that scene in The Pale Blue Eye when Poe sees the bookshelves, gasps, and blurts out: "Books!".

 

[JulieWeathers]

Julie,


Hope your writing is going well!




Hollywood is Hollywood. It is a profit-driven business based on entertainment. Entertainment being the key word. Films/streaming are targeted for mass appeal rather than a niche audience. For example, a spec focused on a CW battle might be shifted so the protagonist has a love interest to add emotional stakes. Instead of the battle being the climactic scene, the story gets bookended by the relationship: meet the love interest, go to battle, reunite with the love interest. Rinse and repeat. They're not wrong about trying to frame a story for broader commercial appeal, but sometimes that approach ends up alienating potential viewers.





I love "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" and have several versions by different artists on my playlist, along with "The Weight" and "Up on Cripple Creek" on other playlists. I hadn't heard of Kincaid before, but after listening, I'll be buying a couple of his songs.


Each of my writing projects has its own playlist~ for GE, along with soundtrack scores and period music, there's plenty of Phil Ley, The Steeldrivers ("Sticks that Made Thunder" is a favorite), Poor Man's Poison (my favorite version of "Wayfaring Stranger"), Dead South, Shane Smith & The Saints, Jack Savoretti's "Soldier's Eyes," among others.


I also have a story soundtrack ~ which is music born from my WIP ~ so when I'm writing, I can listen to the story through song. It's basically a playlist of my WIP, and it makes answering questions like "What is your protagonist like?" or "What's it about?" so much easier. All I have to say is, "Just have a listen."




I'm a die-hard bibliophile with more books than shelf space, most of them non-fiction focused on history. I tend to favor 19th-century history books for their broader perspective and depth, so I appreciate their value. Still, some prices are crazy insane.

My great- aunt's book is listed on the Zon for three hundred. There is a copy with spine binding detached for sixty on another site, but her book would mainly appeal to those interested in regional history or for genealogical purposes, with (maybe) a slight draw for cowboy and western art lovers. I think a lot of resellers put sky-high prices on books not because of demand, but in hopes the right buyer will pay. But, because they are family, I do try to buy both her and her daughter's books when they pop up and budget allows, but three hundred? No way.



That logline was far too generic. It would need a different angle, because loglines/tags have got to pop, especially in today's market when most of the books that gain traction lean toward high-concept with a film-ready structure.



Crinolines is snappy as well as giving the reader an immediate tether to the story and time.

Janet Reid. She was Query Shark, wasn't she?




The Bronc Ladies sound intriguing!




I've always juggled multiple projects.

GE is the CW, while TBS has a CW veteran story anchor. The third project grounds itself in Arthurian history, focusing on the legend's historical side by drawing on Ancient Roman legions and horsemen. It is set in the present day and avoids all fantasy elements like Merlin, reincarnation, time travel, etc. The fourth is set in Ancient Imperial Rome with dual timelines, inspired by the question: what if you met a historical figure? It delves into the reality behind the legend, uncovers the truth behind key events, and examines how much history has been embellished or twisted over time.




Will this circle around the hidden Confederate spies?




Word vomit is good when it comes to writing.



Admittedly, I don't know much about Jackson and haven't read Surviving the Confederacy. It's always interesting to see other people's bookshelves and see what they're reading, especially when it comes to history. I definitely relate to that scene in The Pale Blue Eye when Poe sees the bookshelves, gasps, and blurts out: "Books!".

STBRD

Hollywood is Hollywood. It is a profit-driven business based on entertainment. Entertainment being the key word. Films/streaming are targeted for mass appeal rather than a niche audience. For example, a spec focused on a CW battle might be shifted so the protagonist has a love interest to add emotional stakes.

Oh, agreed. Now, as I've said, I've found several romantic stories in the CW era that fascinate me and I may do a series of stories about them someday. And, to be honest, Rain Crow starts out with a spark of a love interest and bookends with the same couple. But, I hope I didn't ruin the story with unnecessary romantic stuff in inappropriate places to sell something. There was a low budget CW movie in 2015 called Field of Lost Shoes based on the Battle of New Market where VMI cadets joined the battle. Ten of the cadets died in the battle. I'm sure it was Hollywooded a lot, but it was intriguing enough that I dove down that rabbit hole. Fortunately, they didn't destroy the real life people to tell a story.

I hadn't heard of Kincaid before, but after listening, I'll be buying a couple of his songs.

Kincaid is very good and I love his CW music.

Each of my writing projects has its own playlist~ for GE, along with soundtrack scores and period music, there's plenty of Phil Ley, The Steeldrivers ("Sticks that Made Thunder" is a favorite), Poor Man's Poison (my favorite version of "Wayfaring Stranger"), Dead South, Shane Smith & The Saints, Jack Savoretti's "Soldier's Eyes," among others.

I also have a story soundtrack ~ which is music born from my WIP ~ so when I'm writing, I can listen to the story through song. It's basically a playlist of my WIP, and it makes answering questions like "What is your protagonist like?" or "What's it about?" so much easier. All I have to say is, "Just have a listen."

I laughed. I have a playlist to get me in the mood to write CW. The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down cranks it off. Then The Irish Brigade by Kincaid and several other of his songs. Lorena by the 97th Regimental String Band and several of their songs. I really like them also. Have you seen the Civil War Dance videos put on by the Victorian Dance Ensemble, accompanied by the Susquehanna Travellers Band? I always watch those videos to get me in the mood to write a ball scene. 2nd Carolina String Band is also very good for mood writing.
That's a good idea about using the playlist to describe something. I don't think I could match it up well enough to help me.

I'm a die-hard bibliophile with more books than shelf space, most of them non-fiction focused on history. I tend to favor 19th-century history books for their broader perspective and depth, so I appreciate their value. Still, some prices are crazy insane.

Same and I agree. I haunt Abe books often times to try to find more reasonable prices. I found a first edition of Pinkerton's first book at Abe for a reasonable price.

I came in possession of five boxes of Christian books from the 1700's through early 1900's that I am probably going to sell. I thought to read them to get a deeper perspective of faith in the 1800's but I will never have time. I need to home them as I'm afraid my children would just toss them if something happened to me.

My great- aunt's book is listed on the Zon for three hundred. There is a copy with spine binding detached for sixty on another site, but her book would mainly appeal to those interested in regional history or for genealogical purposes, with (maybe) a slight draw for cowboy and western art lovers. I think a lot of resellers put sky-high prices on books not because of demand, but in hopes the right buyer will pay. But, because they are family, I do try to buy both her and her daughter's books when they pop up and budget allows, but three hundred? No way.

Well, that's interesting, but I don't blame you. I bought a bible from 1861 that was in poor shape, but I treasure it. The lady who owned it had a lot of notes in the margins with comments about the sermon the scripture pertained to. It makes it feel a lot more special to be connected to her.

Will this circle around the hidden Confederate spies?

Yes, I'm not sure how the second book starts yet. I intended Rain Crow to cover the first year of the war, but would up barely into the first year. It ends in August 1861. The third book, I'm, pretty sure, will focus on a Confederate spy ring in Canada. I'm way ahead of myself on that. I got caught up in some stuff and had to write some scenes while they were in my head. They're tucked away in a new file. The second book for sure will still focus on spying. Joanna Bourne wrote a series of spy romance novels during the French revolutionary and Napoleonic era. I think Rain Crow will follow a similar pattern with not quite as much romance.

Law, I hope I live to be very old and still sane to finish all these stories.

Janet Reid. She was Query Shark, wasn't she?

Yes, she was fantastic. I miss her a lot.

The Bronc Ladies sound intriguing!

They were fascinating. My dad begged me to write a book about the Greenoughs, who were a famous bronc riding family in Montana. He was good friends with them, especially Alice and Marge. I wish I had started when they were still alive so I could have interviewed them.

That era will be the second in the series. The first starts in the late 1800's early 1900's. I have the ending. I just need to bookend it with the main character.

Admittedly, I don't know much about Jackson and haven't read Surviving the Confederacy. It's always interesting to see other people's bookshelves and see what they're reading, especially when it comes to history. I definitely relate to that scene in The Pale Blue Eye when Poe sees the bookshelves, gasps, and blurts out: "Books!".

I laughed. Books! indeed.

Surviving the Confederacy was very good. One of my favorite Jackson books is a collection of letters between him and his wife. A collection of Lee letters is also a favorite book.

I hope you'll keep me posted on how your book(s) are doing.

Julie

 

[Stbrd]

Julie,

Oh, agreed. Now, as I've said, I've found several romantic stories in the CW era that fascinate me and I may do a series of stories about them someday.

A series of love stories centered around the CW sounds like a great project!

There was a low budget CW movie in 2015 called Field of Lost Shoes based on the Battle of New Market where VMI cadets joined the battle. Ten of the cadets died in the battle. I'm sure it was Hollywooded a lot, but it was intriguing enough that I dove down that rabbit hole. Fortunately, they didn't destroy the real life people to tell a story.

I saw Field of Lost Shoes. I liked it. A lot of indie productions have made out some great films.

Kincaid is very good and I love his CW music.

I purchased a couple songs from the Zon.

I laughed. I have a playlist to get me in the mood to write CW. The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down cranks it off. Then The Irish Brigade by Kincaid and several other of his songs. Lorena by the 97th Regimental String Band and several of their songs. I really like them also.

Is the song Lorena what inspired your protag's name?

Have you seen the Civil War Dance videos put on by the Victorian Dance Ensemble, accompanied by the Susquehanna Travellers Band? I always watch those videos to get me in the mood to write a ball scene. 2nd Carolina String Band is also very good for mood writing.

Loved the dance video. Thanks for sharing and it's great to see history being kept alive.

That's a good idea about using the playlist to describe something. I don't think I could match it up well enough to help me.

The songs are my own, serving as the story beats for GE. Some have specific lyric cues that act as audio 'Post-It Notes', as well as reinforcing the cental hook. It is basically a song/music synopsis broken down by scene and character. It also gives me my own playlist with various tempos and genre.

For instance, several songs focus on the legend of S. R., the name the Confederates use for the protagonist. The lyrics revolve around the cloth he wears wrapped around his wrists. Basically, something like this:


Hold the line
Son
Hold the line
Say what you will
Then say it again
If you see that cloth in the fight
You're already dead
Pray for your sins
Pray for your name
"If you catch that flash of color
You don't get to say goodbye"


Some songs highlight events within the story, inlcuding the prep for the confrontation when Blue and Gray stand as one. Even the final punch scene was framed by music. It's the GE pivot the protag takes ~ like this snippet:


They said the South went silent
When E hit the ridge
Blue coat
Blue eyes burning
Like a sermon off the hinge
He walked through smoking orchards
Mud and marrow on his boots
Every prayer got strangled
Every flag turned soot


G E
Name like a curse in a dying man's throat
G E
Turns faith into flame
Turns covenant to smoke
Ash in your teeth
Bone in your road
When Y E's coming
Even Heaven won't hold

War was just the warning
Hell was just the drum
Coachman in the doorway
Said
"Your day has come"
Angels locked the ledger
Devils dimmed their coals
One man at the crossroads
Holding the world by the throat


It is all part of my chaotic process.

Same and I agree. I haunt Abe books often times to try to find more reasonable prices. I found a first edition of Pinkerton's first book at Abe for a reasonable price.

That sounds like a great find!

I came in possession of five boxes of Christian books from the 1700's through early 1900's that I am probably going to sell. I thought to read them to get a deeper perspective of faith in the 1800's but I will never have time. I need to home them as I'm afraid my children would just toss them if something happened to me.

Can you connect the books to a specific family? Many people look for items tied to family names on sites like eBay. I once came across a hand-drawn postcard from my second cousin on eBay. That was a shocker!

Well, that's interesting, but I don't blame you. I bought a bible from 1861 that was in poor shape, but I treasure it. The lady who owned it had a lot of notes in the margins with comments about the sermon the scripture pertained to. It makes it feel a lot more special to be connected to her.

1861 Bible! Poor shape or not, that is a treasure. The margin notes are gold, and yes, there is a sort of connection to previous owners. Have you found any notes or cards tucked between the pages of old books? I have a whole collection of finds that were tucked away in books and long forgotten.

Yes, I'm not sure how the second book starts yet. I intended Rain Crow to cover the first year of the war, but would up barely into the first year. It ends in August 1861. The third book, I'm, pretty sure, will focus on a Confederate spy ring in Canada.

Confederate spy ring in Canada. That's a new angle!

I'm way ahead of myself on that. I got caught up in some stuff and had to write some scenes while they were in my head. They're tucked away in a new file.

When stories are still just ideas but start spitting out scenes, those often turn out to be some of the best.

Surviving the Confederacy was very good. One of my favorite Jackson books is a collection of letters between him and his wife. A collection of Lee letters is also a favorite book.

Do any of the letters tie into the CW love stories?