The long Overdue Wilder thread

Do you know how much ammunition Wilder's men were carrying? IIRC, they usually carried 100 rds. They would have to maintain strict fire discipline, if they only had 100 rds. each.


When the Spencer's were first issued in May, each man got a box of 42. The records show that some recieved 49 for some reason. During the battle at Hoover's Gap, Wilder estimated that they expended around 100 thousand rounds that day.

Last summer, while Scv camp that owns or should I say that cares for the battle field at Beech Grove, Tn, found several spent shells and 2 live rounds when they were restoring some of the old grave sites there.
 
Evidence of remarkable discipline. The ordinary man, with a repeating rifle, would tend to blow off his supply in short order. Wilder seems to have instilled the discipline of measured, aimed shooting.

The powers that be rejected official issue of repeaters simply because they had no confidence in the soldier to be judicious in his use of ammunition. To be sure, many blew their wad early, but some commanders had carefully trained their troops to husband their supply.
 
Here are the 8th points of the regimental order issued on 15th/63:

7th Ammunition must be carefully husbanded and none expended except when positively necessary. Reports of ammunition will be required after each inspection.

This regimental order outline the care and handling of the Spencer rifles that they had just recived
 
John Wilder was a very remarkable man, before and after the war as well as during it! I tend to lean on bios - like to see who these guys were to see why they could do what they did. He, like Forrest, had no military training or experience, but sure had a natural talent for war.

Wilder was born in the Catskill Mts of New York and migrated to Ohio as a teenager. It's said he was so down on his luck he was fairly close to starving when he found a coin on the street - saved! He was headed for the bakery to buy a roll when he stopped and thought a little. He decided to save the coin until he was a lot hungrier! A day or so later he got a job in a foundry and didn't need to spend it. (He carried the coin on his person throughout the rest of his life.)

Wilder's ambition, energy and brains impressed his boss, who offered to make the boy a full partner. Couldn't beat that deal! Wilder not only turned it down but quit - he had bigger plans. He relocated to Indiana and started his own foundry! He was an inventor and became nationally known in the field of hydraulics.

When the war opened in 1861, Wilder cast two cannon, melted his metal down into bullets, closed the foundry and recruited a light artillery company. They weren't accepted by the regular army but he enlisted as a private, then a few months later the governor of Indiana made him lt colonel of the 17th Indiana Infantry - the future Lightning Brigade!

1SGDan,rhp6033 and others have already presented a fine summary of Wilder's brigade, but I'll add a dab or two, with a little repetition!

He was not your usual right away - his first major battle (there was a beginning one in Virginia) was at Corinth after Shiloh. He had arrived too late to participate much in that battle, but his activity impressed Buell. He was not one to gather moss either - he promptly moved on to McMinnville and jumped on N B Forrest - he later successfully attacked him at both Chickamauga and Chattanooga. While he was recuperating from typhoid at home in Greensburg IN, John Hunt Morgan raided Kentucky and small bands of Confederate raiders entered Indiana - Wilder crawled out of bed and assembled a 30-day outfit who ran the raiders back south. These were his first mounted infantry. (Forrest had, sort of by accident, been using this method since the battle of Sacramento.) Wilder later mixed it up again with Morgan in Tennessee and decided he liked his style. Soon Wilder and his men were raiding, too - with excellent results. Wilder picked up some good ideas from his enemies, and tweaked them in his own inimitable style!

Wilder distinguished himself in many battles thereafter, and was captured at Munfordville. Bragg had sent Gen Chalmers and Munfordville native Simon Bolivar Buckner to take care of the railroad bridge - Buckner, not wanting his hometown flattened, courteously informed Wilder he was surrounded and did he wish to surrender? No, he did not. He and his men fought and defended their position. Even Wilder's superior, Dunham, recommended he surrender. Wilder began to think maybe he really was outnumbered, and so he sent a message to Bragg asking for a truce so he could see for himself! He got his tour and found his 3500 men had been holding out against 25,000 and 45 cannon. "Well," said Wilder, scratching his chin, "Maybe I ought to surrender!" He was paroled after a couple months and joined with Rosecrans.

As mentioned in earlier posts, Wilder discovered the Spencers at a gun dealer's in Murfreesboro and immediately recognized their value. He borrowed from bankers in Greensburg and got his own men to buy in as well. He also offered to hock his property to secure the bank loan but they gave it to him anyway. Wilder's house had burned down - he requested a leave to deal with it but Rosecrans turned him down, saying, "We can't spare you. The government might better build you half a dozen houses than have you away for 10 days." Also as previously noted, he armed his men with long handled hatchets, so sometimes they are called "The Hatchet Brigade." (There were some difficulties with Union cavalry sabers - sometimes it was hard to procure them and usually they were delivered 'as is' - often the soldiers had no training in how to use them. A hatchet was pretty self-explanatory and most had experience with them!)

The battle of Hoover's Gap proved the worth of the Spencer rifles in the hands of Wilder's unique company. This battle is where they acquired the nickname, "The Lightning Brigade". They were prominent from then on - Chattanooga, Chickamauga and so to the end.

After the war, Wilder moved to Chattanooga and became a leading citizen. Some wryly commented he wasn't too bad for a carpetbagger! He led in the development of eastern Tennessee - one reason he relocated to Chattanooga was to investigate the Cumberlands for minerals. He established the Roane Mountain Iron Company. Eventually he merged with other companies, including a rolling mill W T Sherman had established, and it became the Southern Iron Company. (He also invented the Wilder Turbine Wheel.) East Tennessee mining and iron works boomed! He also founded Chattanooga University. One interesting thing he did in this corner of Tennessee was connect the mineral resources of North Carolina, West Virginia and East Tennessee.

He built the famous Cloud Hotel or Roane Mountain Hotel, which was very beautiful and high in the mountains. So many of his guests were invalids and health seekers that they were called "The Hay Fever Brigade". Many, many noted people visited. (The hotel's guest book and registry have been lost but it had many a famous signature inside!) The hotel was, curiously, situated half in Tennessee and half in North Carolina, the state line running through the lobby. North Carolina was dry so liquor was served only on the Tennessee side of the building!

Wilder also was strongly involved in creating the Chattanooga and Chickamauga National Military Parks. He made many friends on both sides, including some he partnered with and some he employed. He made a particular friendship with Forrest. Having heard Forrest was about to be arrested for parole violation because of his klan activities, Wilder appeared at Forrest's home in Memphis to ascertain what the general was up to. Satisfied that Forrest's intentions were only to protect white Southerners, Wilder used his influence to help prevent the arrest. Later, Forrest and his wife stayed with the Wilders for two or three weeks in Chattanooga.

John Wilder had two wives and a large number of descendants. He died in 1887 in Florida, apparently from a relapse of the old typhoid. He is buried in Forest Hills Cemetery, Chattanooga, TN.
 
Some how Diane the year that he died got miss miss placed. He did die in Fla, but in 1917. Some of his letters are on line and can be found in the Upton Library of the University of Tennessee Chattanooga.

At one time during his encampment in Mufreesboro in the 1863, he had begged his wife to bring the children to Murfreesboro to spend the winter with him. He mentioned that Capt Lilly (Eli Lilly) had his wife and young son living in the house that he was staying in.

When he refused to come, that was when he sent word to Gen Rosecrans that he was going to resign his commission. The General refused to listen to him and the rest is history.

I should mention that Lilly and Wilder were very close during the time of Hoover's Gap and Chattanooga. Lilly, like Wilder was a fast leaner and when he crossed paths with Forrest in 1864, the result was interesting.
 
richard,

Yes, you're right! It was 1917 and the hotel was the Cloudland! He had some interesting people around him - Lilly, of pharmaceutical fame and his daughter (Edith, I believe) married the guy who founded Scott paper products - Scott towels!

It did indeed get interesting and tragic, too. Lilly met Forrest on his way to Pulaski, at Sulfur Creek and the situation developed into a pretty hard-fought battle. Lilly had the famous "Jackass Battery" with him but ended up surrendering - Forrest had to personally come get him, though! The prisoners were sent to Cahaba prison camp - about half died in the explosion of the Sultana.
 
Do you know how much ammunition Wilder's men were carrying? IIRC, they usually carried 100 rds. They would have to maintain strict fire discipline, if they only had 100 rds. each.


When the Spencer's were first issued in May, each man got a box of 42. The records show that some recieved 49 for some reason. During the battle at Hoover's Gap, Wilder estimated that they expended around 100 thousand rounds that day.

Last summer, while Scv camp that owns or should I say that cares for the battle field at Beech Grove, Tn, found several spent shells and 2 live rounds when they were restoring some of the old grave sites there.

Not knocking their accomplishment at Hoovers Gap, as I am a admirer of Wilder, in fact I bought my first original spencer after reading about him. But firing approximately 100 000 rounds and inflicting approximately 200 casualties would not fit my definition of strict fire discipline.
 
Here is a photo taken from the far left of Wilder's line in the West Vinard Field. The gun in the photo is pointing directly down the little revine where Benning's men had taken cover after charging across the Lafayette Road. Wilder's command was a well oiled machine.

vinard field sv.jpg
 
I know what you mean. Much is made of firepower. Many describe piled up bodies, scathing fields of fire etc. But when a pencil gets put to it not so impressive. Soldiers of that time I have no doubt of their courage, no doubt of their efforts, no doubt of their discipline. But their ability to put bullets where they counted in a fight I have alot of doubt.
 
If you are talking about Hoover's Gap and putting bullets where they counted, lets check the number. Wilder had about 1200 men that day. His line stretched from a little past the Manchester Pike to almost 3/4 of a mile at the base of three brush and tree cover hills. There were about 83 rounds of Spencer ammo expended per man. that is not to much for a 5 hour battle that took place in a pouring down rain and fog.
 
He did, which is funny since the first time he laid eyes on the place he shelled the heck out of it! Wilder loved Chattanooga and made it his home after the war. He was elected mayor in 1871 but after six months resigned because he had only been able to attend one meeting in that six-month period because of business. His iron works was the largest employer in Chattanooga - Roan Iron Works, I think - and Wilder was one of the South's leading industrialists.
 

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