The long Overdue Wilder thread

3rd TN Cav USA

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Location
New Mexico
The time has come for a thread for all things John Wilder and Lightning Brigade.As an opener,his brigade was also called The Hatchet Brigade because he prcured for them lomg handles hatchets to carry in lieu of sabres.Very practical.I'm sure we'll soon hear from all experts on horseback goings-on of the Western Theater
 
I think one of the big unknowns of any battle is what would have happened if Wilders Brigade would have been allowed to launch its flank attack against Confederate forces at Chickamagua.. He was sure that his multiple lines of men with repeating rifles and artillary support could have turned the tide on Longstreets attack and saved the day... But for the cowardace of a government civilian employee we will never know...
 
I think one of the big unknowns of any battle is what would have happened if Wilders Brigade would have been allowed to launch its flank attack against Confederate forces at Chickamagua.. He was sure that his multiple lines of men with repeating rifles and artillary support could have turned the tide on Longstreets attack and saved the day... But for the cowardace of a government civilian employee we will never know...

Do you know how much ammunition Wilder's men were carrying? IIRC, they usually carried 100 rds. They would have to maintain strict fire discipline, if they only had 100 rds. each.

I think Wilder's tactics included advancing as a heavy skirmish line. Stopping to fire from cover, then move forward. The hatchets were handy for building quick breastworks.

I've only read a small amount about Wilder. Whether or not the attack would have worked or not, would make an interesting "what if."

dvrmte
 
It' something Wilder might have been able to do - nothing's sure in war, but he might have been able to do something similar to Forrest's attack at Ft Donelson. Forrest blew Grant's lines away with shotguns, which seemed like an iffy proposition, but he did open up a nice hole in a solid line. Wilder might have done substantial injury to Longstreet's attack in much the same way. He was a smart and aggressive leader with well-trained men who had the required discipline. Longstreet hit like a thunderbolt at that section - might have slowed him up some indeed... It's a good what-if, all right!
 
If I remember correctly, Wilder's plan was to form a square with the the 18th Artillery in the center. Lilly had practiced firing on the move before Hoover's Gap took place and was very good at it. It Dana had not been on the scene, there was a very good chance that Wilder could have carried off the move.
 
Do you know how much ammunition Wilder's men were carrying? IIRC, they usually carried 100 rds. They would have to maintain strict fire discipline, if they only had 100 rds. each.

I think Wilder's tactics included advancing as a heavy skirmish line. Stopping to fire from cover, then move forward. The hatchets were handy for building quick breastworks.

I've only read a small amount about Wilder. Whether or not the attack would have worked or not, would make an interesting "what if."

dvrmte

Now I have to break into the books again lol Im sure I posted a description from Wilder of his plan of attack on this forum, but darned if I cant turn it up now :(
 
Wilder has a tower memorial at Chickamauga.......

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM2D7V_Wilders_Brigade_Monument_Tower_Chickamauga_Georgia

http://www.jhemingway.net/Galleries/Gallery_Pages/CW/Chickamauga/Chickamauga_Wilder_Mon.html

Here is a 60 page book form 1900 about the dedication of the tower....

http://books.google.com/books?id=gI...&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Look there is a cable car that goes up and down Lookout mountain....

http://books.google.com/books?id=gI...&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Has anyone ever climbed to the top of Wilder tower....
 
The climb to the top is a easy one. The tower almost did not get built due to the depression that the country was in at that time.

I will copy a discrption of the fighting as witnessed by Henry Campbell of the 18th Indiana Light Artillery later today.
 
IMHO the Lightning Brigade is a forerunner of the Combat Command of WWII.A compact,mobile combined arms force able to hit and hold a larger enemy force in place long enough to disrupt their plans and buying time for a countermove.
 
From Wilder in a post war correspondence...
"
I firmly believe the charge would have resulted in the rout of Longstreets Corps and defeat of Bragg's army. I would have struck them in flank and rear with 5 lines of Spencer rifles, in the hands of the steadiest body of men I ever saw and am satisfied we would have gone through them like an avalanche..

From Blue Lightening by Baumgartner
 
From Wilder in a post war correspondence...
"

From Blue Lightening by Baumgartner

Wilder's use of a raiding force of men in pontoon boats to break the oupost of snipers with their supports who were killing the teams of horses and mules hauling relief supplies into besieged Chattanooga along the "Cracker Line", was his crowning moment.

Several boatloads of his men in midstream (the Raccoon River?)laid down a heavy suppressing fire virtually eliminated any resistance as troops were landed and the critical position taken, along with a few very valuable Whitworth rifles.

This fire and maneuver tactic combined with an opposed amphibious landing were unknown at the time and conceived on the fly. Only a highly trained and disciplined force, and a plan that exploited modern technology could have carried that daring operation off.
 
Well, this is my opinion for what its worth. I dont think Wilder could have pulled it off, just because of sheer numbers. No doubt he would have reaped some heavy losses on several brigades, but once he entered Dyer field and could come under artillery fire...I think he would have been in trouble, add to this that not all of his men had their Spencers yet, so you can count on maybe around 1,000 men armed with them at Chickamauga. Also, there is some doubt if he actually came up with the plan then, or if what he later wrote was Monday morning Quarterbacking.

Now on something else. We have an account from Wilder, found by Dave Powell, that describes his tactic for fighting. Basically he ordered his men to fire slowly, by command, to begin with, getting the Confederates to charge and once they were within 100 yards he had his men fire at will. Pretty devasting.
 
But even 1000 trained men with Spencers would be equal to to many more times their number, and if being hit in the flanks and rear could be pretty devistating..But, I agree though at that point in the battle it probably wouldn't have turned the tide of battle... And according to the OR's noone seems to write about them being placed in a square formation and being set up for a counter attack..So it might have been some after action what if's..

I've also read several accounts of his men where they said they kept their rof low to make the Confederates think they had standard rifles to lure them out of cover and make them advance.. Then they brought on the full force of their fire power...
 
Now on something else. We have an account from Wilder, found by Dave Powell, that describes his tactic for fighting. Basically he ordered his men to fire slowly, by command, to begin with, getting the Confederates to charge and once they were within 100 yards he had his men fire at will. Pretty devasting.

That worked for him very well at Hoover's Gap and at Alexanders Bridge. At Hoover's Gap with his line stretche almost 3/4 of a mile, when the confederates crossed the creek, they took the first round then tried to mount a charge that failed because of the fast repeat of the Spencers.
 
I've been to the top of the tower quite a few times, it's not a hard climb - just some winding steps along the inside of the tower. I wish I had known more about the battle at Chickamauga when I was young, I would have understood it's significance better. The wooded nature of the terrain makes it a lot more difficult to follow the movements of the battle than in other places (Gettysburg, for example).
 
Wilder's men were not cavalry, they were "mounted infantry". They weren't expected to fight on horseback, which would have required sabres, they were expected to use their horses simply to get where they needed to go, and then dismount and fight on foot - similar to the concept of the old "dragoons". Because they weren't cavalry, even getting sabres (if they wanted them) would have been difficult because the Quartermasters didn't have a good way to give cavalry supplies to infantry - it probably would have been tied up in red tape until after the war was over. As it was, Wilder had to take out a private loan to get his Spencers, with each man helping to repay the loan with a small deduction from each payroll.

If you read Cozzen's book on Chickamaugua, you will see Wilder's brigade making an oversize impact all over the place - first by forcing the Confederates to abandon Chattanooga when he appeared on the right bank of the river north of Chattanooga (he made himself appear to be a much larger force); later on the north flank of the Union lines on the second day of battle, then on the center, and finally on the flank. In each instance he held his ground and turned back a Confederate advance in his area which threatened to unhinge the Union lines.

Personally, I think he could have caused some problems for the Confederates if he had charged into their flank at the middle of the third day, but I don't think it would have changed the course of the battle. It might have given Thomas more time to reinforce his forces in Snodgrass Hill and the adjoining ridge as some of the Confederate forces were about-faced to deal with a threat from the rear. But the problem which bedeviled all the Union forces on the west side of the LaFayette road was the loss of the wagon trains, which were either captured or fleeing toward Chattanooga. This limited their ammunition supply to little more than what they had on-hand at the beginning of the battle - there were numerous accounts of men being sent in desperate searches for ammunition to supply Thomas' forces at Snodgrass Hill. Ammunition for repeating rifles was particularly difficult to find, one of the regiments on Snodgrass Hill which was using Colt revolving rifles was reduced to using slightly larger rounds, and they found through experience that by attaching their bayoneette to the end of the rifle the bayonette ring provided just enough extra reinforcement to keep the rifles from blowing up in their faces (you have to wonder how many times that happened before they hit upon a solution). Wilder's men might have had more supply than elsewhere - they might have kept their resupply close at hand. But with the number of Confederates involved, I'm sure they would go through that supply a lot faster than they expected.
 

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