Forrest The Brothers Forrest

[ole]

Always good information, Larry. Keep on digging and putting it out here.

Ole

 

[TerryB]

A possible second place

If there's an American family who put more of their energy, personal fortune and blood into the Civil War, I'd like to hear or read about 'em. Whether you agree with their personal characteristics, traits, or political beliefs, seems to me the Forrest brothers at least deserve a salute for their sticking to personal convictions. Any additions, corrections or suggestions for further information on these guys will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. The Forrest Boyhood Home near Chapel Hill, Tennessee is rapidly nearing restoration. Owned by the Sons of Conferate Veterans, it is a worthy candidate for your contributions and is certainly a place that produced a family of warriors.

The Snodgrass extended family of White County, Tenn., were descendants of the James Snodgrass who fought at King's Mountain in the Revolution. I'm a direct descendant of Maj. Snodgrass. His White County descendants had five men die in Confederate service as far as I can document. Capt. David S. died of disease in Miss. in Aug., 1863. His half-brother Lt. John V. was killed at Franklin. One died a POW in Ky., one was killed at Murfreesboro, and one died in a train wreck near Chattanooga in 1863. Any number of my ancestors and their friends fought with Forrest, Wheeler and Roddey, so I've had occassion to read up on the Wizard of the Saddle. I'm also related to Capt. Henry Pointer, who carried the white flag to Streight's camp, and who suggested that he go ahead and take that pull off Forrest's flask, since it might well be his last.

 

[larry_cockerham]

I have previously heard of the Snodgrass family, in fact as a response to the paragraph that you quoted. You are correct the Snodgrass and Forrest families were of the same caliber. By the way, I read the Nashville Historical Bulletin on my computer at Metro Parks for years, an excellent work. I retired from there over a year ago and went to work for a consulting company.

 

[TerryB]

Nhn

I have previously heard of the Snodgrass family, in fact as a response to the paragraph that you quoted. You are correct the Snodgrass and Forrest families were of the same caliber. By the way, I read the Nashville Historical Bulletin on my computer at Metro Parks for years, an excellent work. I retired from there over a year ago and went to work for a consulting company.

I'm glad you like NHN. I wrote them once asking what they knew about the Ellistons, and Mike said, "Why don't you do some research and write an essay?" Ed Buford's story got me into it. You still in the Nashville area?

 

[TerryB]

Okolona

Don Troiani has a book of paintings out, and on page 161 is a picture of an enraged Forrest, saber in hand, charging alone into the Union ranks. The accompanying text asserts that Jeffrey was killed leading a charge, shot through the neck and killed.

 

[TerryB]

Fort Pillow

Forrest incurred 100 casualties at Fort Pillow, most of whom were wounded in action. By nightfall, over 400 Federals were killed, and some 170 taken prisoners taken (most of whom were wounded). Some male civilians were made casualties who were either runaway slaves or slaves drafted for a labor corvee by the garrison. Most of the Federal casualties were suffered in the action before their general route following the success of the final Confederate charge.

A clear pattern emerges that U.S. black soldiers, as opposed to their white comrades, were more likely to be killed outright than accepted as prisoners on the afternoon Fort Pillow fell. One black prisoner from the Federal garrison expressed surprise to his captors for his good treatment, as his white officers told the blacks that Forrest would only spare white enemy soldiers. Even with the cooked testimony of the Republican-dominated congressional committee investigating Fort Pillow, an evident widespread fear in the black artillerymen of the garrison existed that their surrender would not be accepted.

Fair-minded contemporay historians accept that whether Forrest encouraged or discouraged the taking of black prisoners that day, a point which is disputed, the engagement could not have occurred without atrocities--regardless of which side took the victory. Consider who the First Division of the Cavalry Corps was up against. Given that the enemy were black soldiers who, to the man, had been slaves, and that the Southern Union troops were West Tennesseans adept only in stealing horses and illegally trading in cotton, trouble was inevitable in the wake of Forrest's frequent demand of surrender or refusing quarter to enemies in fortified positions.

Union forces at Fort Pillow, black and white, labored under the (well-founded) stigma attached to soldiers who rape and murder and bully and plunder. While Forrest's Texas troops were singled out in congressional reports for sparing surrendered Union prisoners, such was not the case of men hailing from units where their homes were under Federal occupation.
A pattern emerges suggesting that Confederate oficers tended to dissuade the enlisted ranks from shooting surrendered enemies, albeit perhaps out of a desire to see runaways returned to Confederate patriots or to impress black prisoners into the ranks of the camp servants. In one account, a Confederate officer at the bluff is quoted as stating that as there was a great deal of heavy lifting to be done in disposing of the garrison stores, Forrest specified that the black soldiers were not to be put to the sword.
Significantly, all the Federal wounded, black and white, were released to the U.S. Navy for transfer to Cairo soon after the battle.

Again, significantly, the area of the riverbank and the sloping bluff were too broad to corral enraged Confederate enlisted ranks until a great deal of lead had been expended to arrest the Federal flight, one way or another. Moreover, for some time following the breach, the attention of Forrest and his principal officers was engaged in directing fire on a Yankee gunboat, that great, unrealized hope for rescue of the garrison.

That Forrest was quite aware of sporadic massacre being meted out to some Federals is evident in the credible testimony of a Federal surgeon who approached the general for his protection. The exchange went like this before Forrest commanded the man be received as a prisoner detailed to assist the Confederate field hospital.
"You are a surgeon of a ****ed ****** regiment."
Doctor Fitch identified himself as assigned to the 13th Tennessee Cavalry, the white unit of the garrison.
"You are a ****ed Tennessee Yankee, then."
Fitch went on to state that while he was born in Massachusetts, he currently lived in Iowa.
"What in hell are you down here for? I have a good mind to have you killed for being down here."

That was Forrest all right. However much the Yankees charged him with being selective in the taking of prisoners, trying to drive a wedge between the increasingly black Union forces and the white boys in blue, the preponderence of the evidence indicates that Forrest believed that having a just cause to go to war does not permit one to wage total war.

And that's the truth about Forrest, the man, and the myth, forever joined to the story of a hard-won Confederate victory at Fort Pillow.

It's also true that the gunboats kept advancing during the truce, and that the move by the Confederates down the bluff to the river bank was retrograde, not an advance, as alleged.

 

[larry_cockerham]

I'm glad you like NHN. I wrote them once asking what they knew about the Ellistons, and Mike said, "Why don't you do some research and write an essay?" Ed Buford's story got me into it. You still in the Nashville area?

Yes, I'm still here after 30 years. I live near Brentwood and am commander of Sam Davis Camp 1293, Sons of Confederate Veterans. As you can see below, I have three Union ancestors as well.

 

[TerryB]

Mount Olivet

Well, say hello to Tim Burgess, if you know him. He sent me some material that helped me write an article on the Confederate Circle at Mount Olivet. Last time I emailed him, the article hadn't come out yet, but NHN at googlepages has it with two beautiful photos of the statue.

 

[larry_cockerham]

Another tidbit or two from the Forrest family in MS

A Forrest researcher related to the Beck family sent me this little glimpse into Salem, Mississippi and the Forrest family just a few days ago. I'm copying here:

"Mainly what I am writing about, after reading about your efforts to restore the Forrest home in Bedford County, I thought you may be interested in Salem, MS where the Forrest family migrated. My brother , along with several friends, bought 95 acres in Benton County, MS. to hunt deer on, and discovered that it was the site of Salem. There is nothing there now because the Union Army shelled the town from a hill overlooking the town. The Union soldiers rode the railroad from Memphis and then marched South to the town and completely obliterated it, mainly because it was N.B. Forrest old home and because they were supplying Forrest's army when they rode through. As you know, Forrest was never in one place for very long and depended on the farmers in the South to supply his army with food and ammunition and clothing when he rode through."

 

[larry_cockerham]

Salem graves

The lady from Mississippi continued:

"Also on this 95 acres are 2 cemeteries, where I am sure that some of the Forrest family are buried in unmarked graves. There is one grave with a stone that is marked "M. T" , and as you know, towns people buried their valuables in grave yards where they marked the spot with this grave stone which meant "Empty". At the time in the early 80's , I didn't have the nerve to check it out, but think I might now with a little help from my friends."

 

[larry_cockerham]

Forrest and the 12 star flag

There was a lengthy discussion on our SCV communication site today concerning Forrest's use of a 12 star battle flag. Southern myth has it that he removed a star for several reasons, none of them particulary believable, though that notion was even mentioned by Shelby Foote. (who could argue with him?) The contractors in the deep south who produced the flags in rather large numbers were generally given the 'credit'. When the earlier batches were produced the last state hadn't yet seceded. Any thoughts from the group?

 

[ole]

I'll bite Larry, then you can come back and give us your version. Many of the flags had 13 stars -- one for Missouri and one for Kentucky. So. If Forrest pulled one, which one did he pull? And why?

Hey. You're the Forrest guy. Tell me what you think. Compared to you, when it comes to Forrest, I don't know doodly-squat. (How is that poop course coming?)

Folks. Lest you think we're getting mean here. Larry and I have been sparring for years and years. We are, in fact, good friends. So he gets to talk about my age and the bald places, and I get to talk about his shortcomings. But if you want to know something about Nathan Bedford Forrest, or Hood's advance into and retreat from Tennessee, ask Larry. There isn't nobody who knows more about that.

 

[larry_cockerham]

Kind words make me blush, though I have little doubt you'll go easy. I think the subject of Forrest and the 12 star flag is the opposite of an urban myth. The opinion posed was that he was in Georgia ranting about yankees and rudely related that to the missing star. That was something considerably out of character for Forrest, though he did try to remove a few Union soldiers from their earthly settings. Further submissions from our group did verify that a great number of early flags were in fact manufactured with the center star not in place. A couple of states joined the Confederacy late, but Georgia wasn't one of them. I'm no flag scholar, though I can identify the bonny blue. I was fishing for info, but all I got so far was a nibble from a geriatric moderator.

 

[TerryB]

Refresh my memory, Larry. I seem to recall that the Saint Andrews Cross was not formally adopted in the West until 1864 as a battle flag. But I do think Forrest was using it before that, just not sure.

 

[Bobbie]

Maybe General Forrest was superstitious and believed that 13 would bring him bad luck?

 

[larry_cockerham]

Refresh my memory, Larry. I seem to recall that the Saint Andrews Cross was not formally adopted in the West until 1864 as a battle flag. But I do think Forrest was using it before that, just not sure.

Devereaux Cannon wrote in his BATTLE FLAGS OF THE CONFEDERACY that General Joseph E. Johnston issued new and uniform (in size) battle flags to his regiments during the months of March and April 1864. This western flag was rectangular rather than square like the ANV flags. Bragg's troops in February 1862 were issued the "first western version of the 'southern cross' bound on the outer edge by a broad pink border". Since Forrest was part of the Army of Mississippi he likely used the flag as you suggest.

 

[larry_cockerham]

Maybe General Forrest was superstitious and believed that 13 would bring him bad luck?

No, mam. Forrest was many things, but superstitious has never been mentioned to my knowledge.

 

[Bobbie]

No, mam. Forrest was many things, but superstitious has never been mentioned to my knowledge.

Happy to hear that, Sir Sorry for my not too clever suggestion.

 

[larry_cockerham]

Actually that's a very interesting thought. A man of Forrest's stress level and highly charged personal involvement in a series of very brutal fights would have ben inclined to superstitions. I assume that superstition must be founded in a certain degree of incertainty or apprehension. Forrest just simply never presented that type of personna. He could have been highly superstitious and kept it to himself. I don't think that's possible, but it gives one pause. I expect you have a rather highly developed level of cleverness.

 

[Bobbie]

Actually that's a very interesting thought. A man of Forrest's stress level and highly charged personal involvement in a series of very brutal fights would have ben inclined to superstitions. I assume that superstition must be founded in a certain degree of incertainty or apprehension. Forrest just simply never presented that type of personna. He could have been highly superstitious and kept it to himself. I don't think that's possible, but it gives one pause. I expect you have a rather highly developed level of cleverness.

Larry,
thank you for your kind words.

After some consideration, I agree that it's rather unlikely that Forrest believed in superstitions. Well, if we assume that superstition is a kind of distorted religious feeling, than it is hard to suppose that someone who turned to God so late in life could have been prone to any religious feeling earlier.