Telegraph lines

[JohnG0609]

Oh, I see. I had always operated under the assumption that the telegraph was repaired later on the afternoon of April 29. So, it was only down for several hours.

Grabau speaks to this. He writes that the telegraph break was from a normal malfunction. Then writes: "By late afternoon [29th], the telegraph to Vicksburg had been repaired, and Bowen sent a message to Pemberton, informing him of the days' events and asking for cartridge bags and shells for his big guns. As soon as Pemberton got the news, he sent a peremptory wire to Carter Stevenson: "Hurry forward reinforcements to Bowen to-night." Only then did Stevenson order Tracy's and Baldwin's brigades to hit the road for Grand Gulf." Pp 139, 140.

And you are right. I had just come here to say that I had not considered the line was back up on the 29th. That makes perfect sense. And would explain the move to vburg from Jackson. JCP knew PH and GG would be cut off from the east but he still possessed comms along the river route.

Stevenson ordered the reinforcements to Bowen on his own order though:

 

[tony_gunter]

Oh, I see. I had always operated under the assumption that the telegraph was repaired later on the afternoon of April 29. So, it was only down for several hours.

Grabau speaks to this. He writes that the telegraph break was from a normal malfunction. Then writes: "By late afternoon [29th], the telegraph to Vicksburg had been repaired, and Bowen sent a message to Pemberton, informing him of the days' events and asking for cartridge bags and shells for his big guns. As soon as Pemberton got the news, he sent a peremptory wire to Carter Stevenson: "Hurry forward reinforcements to Bowen to-night." Only then did Stevenson order Tracy's and Baldwin's brigades to hit the road for Grand Gulf." Pp 139, 140.

So you think a line ran from Grand Gulf to Vicksburg, and another ran from Grand Gulf to Natchez?

Who built out the line to Vicksburg, the military? Surely it wouldn't make corporate sense to have redundant lines?

 

[alan polk]

So you think a line ran from Grand Gulf to Vicksburg, and another ran from Grand Gulf to Natchez?

Who built out the line to Vicksburg, the military? Surely it wouldn't make corporate sense to have redundant lines?

I'm not completely certain a line ran from PG/GGulf to Natchez, at least during the times we are discussing— see my post #10, above, for my reasoning.

If there was not a line from GG to Vicksburg at the start of Grant's operation, then I would suspect the telegraph was created by the military. A lot of this is buried in the nuances hidden in the Correspondences. I seem to remember a description of laying out telegraph lines south of Vicksburg. I remember it because they describe it by saying they just hung the lines on limbs of trees and atop bramble. But it would be a miracle for me to find that again.

 

[JohnG0609]

I'm not completely certain a line ran from PG/GGulf to Natchez, at least during the times we are discussing— see my post #10, above, for my reasoning.

If there was not a line from GG to Vicksburg at the start of Grant's operation, then I would suspect the telegraph was created by the military. A lot of this is buried in the nuances hidden in the Correspondences. I seem to remember a description of laying out telegraph lines south of Vicksburg. I remember it because they describe it by saying they just hung the lines on limbs of trees and atop bramble. But it would be a miracle for me to find that again.

After our discussions I think the good folks at Carnegie-Mellon have it right. Including the Natchez to Liberty connection from the North-South New Orleans and Ohio Telegraph company along the river to the North-South Southwestern Telegraph company line along the railroad. See interactive map at the link:

https://telegraph.library.cmu.edu/

screenshot here:

 

[tony_gunter]

After our discussions I think the good folks at Carnegie-Mellon have it right. Including the Natchez to Liberty connection from the North-South New Orleans and Ohio Telegraph company along the river to the North-South Southwestern Telegraph company line along the railroad. See interactive map at the link:

https://telegraph.library.cmu.edu/

screenshot here:

View attachment 550254

Oh wow, so competing lines, not redundant lines.

I did see a New Orleans to Columbus line mentioned in the newspapers, but I didn't understand which Columbus they were taking about.

So they never diverted the telegraph to the railroad? Or this map is pre-railroad?

 

[JohnG0609]

Oh wow, so competing lines, not redundant lines.

I did see a New Orleans to Columbus line mentioned in the newspapers, but I didn't understand which Columbus they were taking about.

So they never diverted the telegraph to the railroad? Or this map is pre-railroad?

Parallel N-S lines NO&Ohio Telegraph along the river and SW Telegraph along the railroad, bi-sected on the south Natchez to Liberty and bisected on the north at the Southern RR of Miss.

I had assumed the break on 4/29 pushed traffic to the east, but Alan is right, the break was fixed rapidly and traffic continued along the NO&O river route. Bad assumption on my part that Alan corrected.

Sound about right Alan?

 

[alan polk]

Sound about right Alan?

Of course not! You are opening up an important aspect of the campaign that few people have thought or written about. I've learned a ton by simply engaging with the question. And questioning is what it's all about!! It's always good to have fresh angles on things that we otherwise just take for granted! Well done and keep it up!!

 

[tony_gunter]

Parallel N-S lines NO&Ohio Telegraph along the river and SW Telegraph along the railroad, bi-sected on the south Natchez to Liberty and bisected on the north at the Southern RR of Miss.

I had assumed the break on 4/29 pushed traffic to the east, but Alan is right, the break was fixed rapidly and traffic continued along the NO&O river route. Bad assumption on my part that Alan corrected.

Sound about right Alan?

But the telegraph on this map doesn't follow the railroad south of Jackson.

It *looks* like it goes Jackson —> Clinton —> Gallatin —> Liberty —> Clinton (LA) —> Baton Rouge

 

[tony_gunter]

Parallel N-S lines NO&Ohio Telegraph along the river and SW Telegraph along the railroad, bi-sected on the south Natchez to Liberty and bisected on the north at the Southern RR of Miss.

I had assumed the break on 4/29 pushed traffic to the east, but Alan is right, the break was fixed rapidly and traffic continued along the NO&O river route. Bad assumption on my part that Alan corrected.

Sound about right Alan?

As far as the telegraph going down temporarily between GG and Vicksburg, we shouldn't discount scouts operating along the river in skiffs.

IIRC from reading Dabney Maury's memoirs, Maury's nephew was captured by a band of scouts while reconnoitering the river bottoms.

 

[JohnG0609]

Of course not! You are opening up an important aspect of the campaign that few people have thought or written about. I've learned a ton by simply engaging with the question. And questioning is what it's all about!! It's always good to have fresh angles on things that we otherwise just take for granted! Well done and keep it up!!

Well we all owe you and tony_gunter a debt of gratitude for you guys slogging it out in this forum for years now and I just showed a couple months ago. I think we all have an awareness that there is still a lot left unsaid about the Vicksburg campaign.

Just to give you a little insight into my approach:

There is actually named doctrine for how Pemberton tried to exercise C2 over his department. Sadly for him though, it hadn't been invented yet. So far I'm encouraged that by overlaying that doctrine as a template over his operations and using some analytic tools that are a part of the Military Planning Process I'm able to uncover some things. Just needed to get things mapped out in my head and on paper to start moving towards some conclusions.

John

PS: Tony, are you referencing newspapers from Chronicling America site?

 

[JohnG0609]

As far as the telegraph going down temporarily between GG and Vicksburg, we shouldn't discount the scouts operating along the river in skiffs.

Dabney Maury's nephew was captured by a band of scouts while reconnoitering the river bottoms.

You're right of course, maybe we can reach consensus with "along the line of the RR"? I don't think the telegraph map is synced with a railroad map to get a fully accurate picture. That would be beyond the scope and intention of the telegraph site I think.

 

[alan polk]

Well we all owe you and tony_gunter a debt of gratitude for you guys slogging it out in this forum for years now and I just showed a couple months ago. I think we all have an awareness that there is still a lot left unsaid about the Vicksburg campaign.

Just to give you a little insight into my approach:

There is actually named doctrine for how Pemberton tried to exercise C2 over his department. Sadly for him though, it hadn't been invented yet. So far I'm encouraged that by overlaying that doctrine as a template over his operations and using some analytic tools that are a part of the Military Planning Process I'm able to uncover some things. Just needed to get things mapped out in my head and on paper to start moving towards some conclusions.

John

PS: Tony, are you referencing newspapers from Chronicling America site?

Interesting. If you don't mind, what is the name of the modern command and control doctrine that you say Pemberton was attempting to implement?

 

[JohnG0609]

Interesting. If you don't mind, what is the name of the modern command and control doctrine that you say Pemberton was attempting to implement?

Mission Command

I'm sending you a pm with a little more context to this.

 

[JohnG0609]

So I was reviewing this discussion to try to close it out in my mind. In referencing 98 Days by Grabau cites a "normal break" that was quickly restored, re-establishing the telegraph from GG to Vicksburg. He cites OR 24, pt1, pp 575-575, 678. Except no mention of a repair and only shows Stevenson's message to Pemberton that, "the line to Grand Gulf is broken."
Additionally, there is Bowen's 04/30 message that states that abandoning PG would sever all communications.

And Pemberton's reply:

BLUF: This indicates to me that a line ran east/northeast and connects somewhere above Hazlehurst.

 

[tony_gunter]

So I was reviewing this discussion to try to close it out in my mind. In referencing 98 Days by Grabau cites a "normal break" that was quickly restored, re-establishing the telegraph from GG to Vicksburg. He cites OR 24, pt1, pp 575-575, 678. Except no mention of a repair and only shows Stevenson's message to Pemberton that, "the line to Grand Gulf is broken."
Additionally, there is Bowen's 04/30 message that states that abandoning PG would sever all communications.
View attachment 550490

And Pemberton's reply:

View attachment 550491

BLUF: This indicates to me that a line ran east/northeast and connects somewhere above Hazlehurst.

Referencing your map above, wouldn't the line from PG to Vicksburg run north / northeast to Hankinson's? It's the first point above the Mississippi that's not subject to perennial flooding … bluff to bluff is only about a mile. Anywhere downstream of that will carry the line across miles of bottomlands that could be inundated with 10-20 feet of water during high river stage.

 

[JohnG0609]

Referencing your map above, wouldn't the line from PG to Vicksburg run north / northeast to Hankinson's? It's the first point above the Mississippi that's not subject to perennial flooding … bluff to bluff is only about a mile. Anywhere downstream of that will carry the line across miles of bottomlands that could be inundated with 10-20 feet of water during high river stage.

I believe a line north from PG would run along the GG RR to GG and then on to Vburg. It is entirely possible that it ran from GG to Hankinson's, maybe then to Warrenton, and then on into Vburg.


Just to recapture the original question. How would messages from Jackson get to GG and PG after the break on the GG to Vburg line on 4/29? The line from Vburg to GG was the New Orleans and Ohio Telegraph. It seems logical that after the NO&O Telegraph line was cut that message traffic between PG/GG and Jackson either already existed via a connection to the South West Telegraph along the J&NO RR or was pushed east after the break. And that a line running east from PG would have to intersect the SW Telegraph somewhere north of Hazlehurst, as Hazlehurst was cut by Grierson.

 

[tony_gunter]

I believe a line north from PG would run along the GG RR to GG and then on to Vburg. It is entirely possible that it ran from GG to Hankinson's, maybe then to Warrenton, and then on into Vburg.


Just to recapture the original question. How would messages from Jackson get to GG and PG after the break on the GG to Vburg line on 4/29? The line from Vburg to GG was the New Orleans and Ohio Telegraph. It seems logical that after the NO&O Telegraph line was cut that message traffic between PG/GG and Jackson either already existed via a connection to the South West Telegraph along the J&NO RR or was pushed east after the break. And that a line running east from PG would have to intersect the SW Telegraph somewhere north of Hazlehurst, as Hazlehurst was cut by Grierson.

I'm not convinced they ever shifted the telegraph to the railroad. If so, the connection PG —> Natchez —> Liberty —> Gallatin —> Clinton —> Jackson would not be cut until Grierson moved toward Union Church on April 29th. The break would be small and easily repaired, because Grierson then high-tailed it back to the railroad.

Are you absolutely sure there were redundant lines?

 

[JohnG0609]

I'm not convinced they ever shifted the telegraph to the railroad. If so, the connection PG —> Natchez —> Liberty —> Gallatin —> Clinton —> Jackson would not be cut until Grierson moved toward Union Church on April 29th. The break would be small and easily repaired, because Grierson then high-tailed it back to the railroad.

Are you absolutely sure there were redundant lines?

I'm sure only to the point that it seems logical. But I do like the idea of a PG to Gallatin, skirting west of Hazlehurst and intersecting the SW Telegraph at Crystal Springs (I think you mean CS vs Clinton). It could veer SE to Fayette and back to Gallatin, as I know Fayette had an operator. I think that fits with Bowen's statement that ALL comms would be cut if PG were lost.

So a message from Jackson would be: Jackson--->CS--->Gallatin--->PG---->GG

- Line from Jackson cut at Hazlehurst on 4/26
- line GG to Vburg cut 4/29
- Bowen transmitted from GG to Jackson on 4/30
- A connection to the SW Telegraph someplace north of Hazlehurst (CS?)
- Bowen began transmitting from PG on 5/1
- Pemberton moved to Vburg night of 4/30
- Pemberton began transmitting from Vburg 5/01
- Bowen says losing PG would cut off all comms, implying the GG-Vburg line was still inoperable.

Is there something I'm missing or is there another route that you think is more feasible?

 

[tony_gunter]

I'm sure only to the point that it seems logical. But I do like the idea of a PG to Gallatin, skirting west of Hazlehurst and intersecting the SW Telegraph at Crystal Springs (I think you mean CS vs Clinton). It could veer SE to Fayette and back to Gallatin, as I know Fayette had an operator. I think that fits with Bowen's statement that ALL comms would be cut if PG were lost.

So a message from Jackson would be: Jackson--->CS--->Gallatin--->PG---->GG

- Line from Jackson cut at Hazlehurst on 4/26
- line GG to Vburg cut 4/29
- Bowen transmitted from GG to Jackson on 4/30
- A connection to the SW Telegraph someplace north of Hazlehurst (CS?)
- Bowen began transmitting from PG on 5/1
- Pemberton moved to Vburg night of 4/30
- Pemberton began transmitting from Vburg 5/01
- Bowen says losing PG would cut off all comms, implying the GG-Vburg line was still inoperable.

Is there something I'm missing or is there another route that you think is more feasible?

I found evidence of a north-south line through Vicksburg in the Vicksburg Whig July 24th 1850:

 

[JohnG0609]

I found evidence of a north-south line through Vicksburg in the Vicksburg Whig July 24th 1850:

View attachment 550602

Right.
The question becomes after 4/29, when that line was cut, how were messages transmitted to/from Bowen at GG/PG from/to Pemberton at Jackson?