Steam Engines

[wausaubob]

Its instructive to consider what the US did in the Kentucky/Tennessee theater to learn how dominant the US was in logistics. The Kentucky railroads were converted to standard southern gauge of 5'0" so there no change of freight at Nashville. A car ferry was built at Jeffersonville/Louisville. A railroad town called Johnsonville was built on the Tennessee River to enable freight to move on that river and then complete the trip to Nashville by rail. The US Army built steamboat docks at Bridgeport to put steam barges on the middle Tennessee River. Daniel McCallum even built a rolling mill in Chattanooga, which never saw much use during the war.

 

[Lubliner]

A couple of portable steam engines on the docks at City Point, Va., 1864-1865, by Andrew J. Russell.

View attachment 550578
National Archives 111-B-691

Rich Hochadel
seeingthecivilwar.com

That is a really nice photo of the yards at City Point. I hadn't seen this one before, thanks.
Lubliner.

 

[Old Soldier]

Or a lift cable to pull a wagon up the first hill.

In most of the early London stations there was a rope-hauled incline with a steam winch at the top. Once at the top, they were connected to their locomotive and off they went. Around 1835, the steepest incline a loco would be expected to climb was 1 in 500 (2%) By 1900 there were a number at 1 in 37 (26.5% - Ravenscar, Lickey). Near to Ravenscar, the Beckhole gradient on the Whitby Pickering railway was a rope-hauled inline at 1 in 10 (100%). It was replaced in 1847 by a line graded at 1 in 49 (50%) which was still hard work for many locomotives at the end of steam in 1968.

 

[rebelatsea]

I wonder what they were used for.

Powering winches or lifting apparatus at a guess. Possibly portable sawmills and large augers / drills. Just a couple of suggestions.

 

[rebelatsea]

I don't know whether any American city was so equipped, but the London Hydraulic Power Company used high pressure water mains to power the London docks - cranes, winches, gates etc and to power lifts (elevators) in the buildings of the West end. The pressure was maintained by central steam pumping houses.

Not really relevant, but the hydraulic power system was put paid to by wholesale wrecking of the mains in the blitz, but localised surviving portions were still operational until the closure of the docks late in the 19th Century.

 

[rebelatsea]

In most of the early London stations there was a rope-hauled incline with a steam winch at the top. Once at the top, they were connected to their locomotive and off they went. Around 1835, the steepest incline a loco would be expected to climb was 1 in 500 (2%) By 1900 there were a number at 1 in 37 (26.5% - Ravenscar, Lickey). Near to Ravenscar, the Beckhole gradient on the Whitby Pickering railway was a rope-hauled inline at 1 in 10 (100%). It was replaced in 1847 by a line graded at 1 in 49 (50%) which was still hard work for many locomotives at the end of steam in 1968.

What makes the climb out of Grosmont more difficult is that it's from a standing start at the station platform, across a level crossing and into Grosmont tunnel. I 've had the privelege of being on the footplate, believe me it's hard work on the fireman and the noise is deafening. We had the Pullman set which is in the video, on the drawbar and it pulls like a dead weight! Even the big diesels grunt with a heavy set, and sometimes poor railhead conditions test the crews skill to the limit. Bear in mind these guys and gals are all volunteers.

 

[Old Soldier]

What makes the climb out of Grosmont more difficult is that it's from a standing start at the station platform, across a level crossing and into Grosmont tunnel. I 've had the privelege of being on the footplate, believe me it's hard work on the fireman and the noise is deafening. We had the Pullman set which is in the video, on the drawbar and it pulls like a dead weight! Even the big diesels grunt with a heavy set, and sometimes poor railhead conditions test the crews skill to the limit. Bear in mind these guys and gals are all volunteers.

Alas, I know it well. I was one of the first volunteers before the NYMR was officially a company and we had numerous trials with small trains pulled by some tiny industrial locos before we got decent line locos. That video tells you exactly when they are stoking and just how good the seals are. The noise is deafening.

To the non-steamers. Whenever the fireebox door is opened and coal shovelled in, it lifts the fire and all manner of dark matter is drawn through the boiler tubes and get caught in the exhaust, giving it that ... black/grey/brown color. (And the reason why the bridges have that dark streak above the arch)
The 'seals' are the ones in the cylinder which SHOULD prevent steam escaping. If the cylinders show no steam they are spot on ad working efficiently - full power. If there is lots of steam coming from the pistons (the white stuff near the front wheels) - some of them seem to be wrapped in cloud - they need a darn good service PDQ as they will be losing lots of power from the escaping stream. Any incline involves a lot of work, not only from the crew, but also the boiler. Most will be VERY hot at the top and the safety valve lifting.

 

[USS ALASKA]

...and so far not one mention of one of the original industrial uses of steam engines...pumping out mines...

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[Old Soldier]

...and so far not one mention of one of the original industrial uses of steam engines...pumping out mines...

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

Mainly because it was one of the forst applications - a century or more before the civil war.

 

[wausaubob]

This is consistent with Mark Wilson's other main topic: by 1861 a modern nation could rely on paperwork and telegraph messages to create the bureaucratic apparatus to manage the logistics of war, without relying on the time honored tradition of systematic pillage. There were episodes of US armies living off the countryside, but they reconnected to a river, the coast, or a railhead very promptly.

 

[USS ALASKA]

Mainly because it was one of the forst applications - a century or more before the civil war.

And still in use during this timeframe helping to, over that period of 100 years,...

1. Refine the designs to make them more reliable.
2. Refine the designs to make them more efficient.
3. Refine the designs to make them more powerful.
4. Refine the designs to make smaller units that produce the same power as older models thus saving space and weight.
5. Broader industrial base to manufacture new units and spares.
6. More trained operators.
7. More trained maint techs.

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[Old Soldier]

This is consistent with Mark Wilson's other main topic: by 1861 a modern nation could rely on paperwork and telegraph messages to create the bureaucratic apparatus to manage the logistics of war, without relying on the time honored tradition of systematic pillage. There were episodes of US armies living off the countryside, but they reconnected to a river, the coast, or a railhead very promptly.

In the case of Sherman's March to the Sea (and ripping up the railroads), 'pillage' was the only way they could get basic supplies. Gettysburg was a military target mainly for resupply as it was a busy crossroads for several highways. I do not expect the Confederate Army had a supply depot there.

 

[Old Soldier]

And still in use during this timeframe helping to, over that period of 100 years,...

1. Refine the designs to make them more reliable.
2. Refine the designs to make them more efficient.
3. Refine the designs to make them more powerful.
4. Refine the designs to make smaller units that produce the same power as older models thus saving space and weight.
5. Broader industrial base to manufacture new units and spares.
6. More trained operators.
7. More trained maint techs.

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

Isn't that the way with all technology - provided it still has a purpose? I try to keep my comments on the available technology to railroad proportions - within 30 years either way of the civil war but I have strayed occasionally.
Yes, mining, especially deep mining was a primary user of steam power and, in the UK, the reason for the development of railroads since they were the primary haulage for coal, especially from mine to port. However, as you say, the early beam engines also lent themselves to pumping as not all mines were water-free. Note that initially this was a two-way linear motion (like a bike pump).

However it was also used for transportation of miners from face to surface using this same motion - the 'man-engine'. The idea was to have a wooden beam with platforms on either side. One was for UP and one for DOWN. There were corresponding holes in the rock either side so each platform would travel between those holes. Each shift would separate into small, platform-sized groups. At the lower end of each stroke the UPs would get ON and on the opposite side the DOWNs would step OFF once it reached the top of the stroke the UPs would get off and the DOWNs would get on. This animation shows a two-beam oscillating operation (no holes in walls):

These were still in use after WW1. They were used in fairly shallow shafts of mines in place of ladders. When deeper mines were developed, the winch and cage was used - often decending at great speed. 180mph was not unusual. You never fell out with the winchman.

 

[rebelatsea]

Alas, I know it well. I was one of the first volunteers before the NYMR was officially a company and we had numerous trials with small trains pulled by some tiny industrial locos before we got decent line locos. That video tells you exactly when they are stoking and just how good the seals are. The noise is deafening.

To the non-steamers. Whenever the fireebox door is opened and coal shovelled in, it lifts the fire and all manner of dark matter is drawn through the boiler tubes and get caught in the exhaust, giving it that ... black/grey/brown color. (And the reason why the bridges have that dark streak above the arch)
The 'seals' are the ones in the cylinder which SHOULD prevent steam escaping. If the cylinders show no steam they are spot on ad working efficiently - full power. If there is lots of steam coming from the pistons (the white stuff near the front wheels) - some of them seem to be wrapped in cloud - they need a darn good service PDQ as they will be losing lots of power from the escaping stream. Any incline involves a lot of work, not only from the crew, but also the boiler. Most will be VERY hot at the top and the safety valve lifting.

Well done sir, I very nearly got persuaded to join the NYMR permanent way staff at a time when it looked as if I was about to be redundant. a big What if in my life. Instead I ended up attached to EWS on the mail trains. I have a soft spot for the NYMR, having friends on the staff, currently running diesel only because of the fire risk due to lack of rainfall.

 

[Old Soldier]

currently running diesel only because of the fire risk due to lack of rainfall.

Relax. It's been bucketing down for the last few days.

 

[wausaubob]

In the case of Sherman's March to the Sea (and ripping up the railroads), 'pillage' was the only way they could get basic supplies. Gettysburg was a military target mainly for resupply as it was a busy crossroads for several highways. I do not expect the Confederate Army had a supply depot there.

I don't think that is correct. The army was well supplied before it left the railhead. (The railroad back to Chattanooga was taken, if my memory is correct.) At any rate, I think Sherman's army had sufficient commissary supplies until it reached the pine lands. We would need a Georgian to confirm that.

 

[Old Soldier]

I don't think that is correct. The army was well supplied before it left the railhead. (The railroad back to Chattanooga was taken, if my memory is correct.) At any rate, I think Sherman's army had sufficient commissary supplies until it reached the pine lands. We would need a Georgian to confirm that.

Sherman's Special Field Orders, No. 120:
.. IV. The army will forage liberally on the country during the march. To this end, each brigade commander will organize a good and sufficient foraging party, under the command of one or more discreet officers, who will gather, near the route traveled, corn or forage of any kind, meat of any kind, vegetables, corn-meal, or whatever is needed by the command, aiming at all times to keep in the wagons at least ten days' provisions for the command and three days' forage. Soldiers must not enter the dwellings of the inhabitants, or commit any trespass, but during a halt or a camp they may be permitted to gather turnips, apples, and other vegetables, and to drive in stock in sight of their camp. To regular foraging parties must be intrusted the gathering of provisions and forage at any distance from the road traveled.

 

[G Low]

I don't think that is correct. The army was well supplied before it left the railhead. (The railroad back to Chattanooga was taken, if my memory is correct.) At any rate, I think Sherman's army had sufficient commissary supplies until it reached the pine lands. We would need a Georgian to confirm that.

After the fall of Atlanta in September 1864, Confederate General John Bell Hood led his battered Army of Tennessee northward through Big Shanty (Kennesaw), Acworth, Resaca, and Dalton, tearing up large portions of the Western & Atlantic Railroad and capturing small Federal garrisons along the Way.

 

[wausaubob]

Sherman's Special Field Orders, No. 120:
.. IV. The army will forage liberally on the country during the march. To this end, each brigade commander will organize a good and sufficient foraging party, under the command of one or more discreet officers, who will gather, near the route traveled, corn or forage of any kind, meat of any kind, vegetables, corn-meal, or whatever is needed by the command, aiming at all times to keep in the wagons at least ten days' provisions for the command and three days' forage. Soldiers must not enter the dwellings of the inhabitants, or commit any trespass, but during a halt or a camp they may be permitted to gather turnips, apples, and other vegetables, and to drive in stock in sight of their camp. To regular foraging parties must be intrusted the gathering of provisions and forage at any distance from the road traveled.tnhehy

They were supplementing what they had with them. There was a sizable cattle herd. Its probable they brought salt, coffee and hardtack with them.

 

[Old Soldier]

They were supplementing what they had with them. There was a sizable cattle herd. Its probable they brought salt, coffee and hardtack with them.

Man cannot live on meat alone. It would last a day or two at most.