Searching for an appraiser.

[JOHN42768]

http://www.nramuseum.org/gun-info-research.aspx Worth a call

 

[Booner]

I was told the double barrel on the bottom was the rare one.

First, welcome to the forum.
And thank you for the additional pictures.
What I see is that you have two rifles; a single shot that has been converted from a flintlock to a cap lock, and a double barreled rifle that has two very crude hammers that don't fit with the style of the rest of the rifle.
And then you have a double barreled shotgun that has lost it's right hand lock, and appears to me to be a production gun, so I don't know why it would be considered rare. It's the double barreled rifle that is the most interesting; it's a very uncommon weapon.....
Since you live in PN. you might give Cabin Creek Muzzleloading a call. They are in Hallem, PN (717-757-5841). They may be able to help you out.

 

[Lissa8304]

First, welcome to the forum.
And thank you for the additional pictures.
What I see is that you have two rifles; a single shot that has been converted from a flintlock to a cap lock, and a double barreled rifle that has two very crude hammers that don't fit with the style of the rest of the rifle.
And then you have a double barreled shotgun that has lost it's right hand lock, and appears to me to be a production gun, so I don't know why it would be considered rare. It's the double barreled rifle that is the most interesting; it's a very uncommon weapon.....
Since you live in PN. you might give Cabin Creek Muzzleloading a call. They are in Hallem, PN (717-757-5841). They may be able to help you out.

Thank you for the information! I will call them tomorrow, should I ask for anybody specific?

 

[captaindrew]

Nice pieces! good luck with your search and let us know what you find out.

 

[Drew]

Welcome to CivilWarTalk. It looks like you're getting some useful advice, which I would expect.

I can't help with evaluating the rifles but was startled at some of the pictures. Please, do not hold the muzzle of a gun pointed at your face for a picture (or any other reason). It doesn't matter how old it may be .

Congrats and good luck trying to figure this out.

 

[Lissa8304]

Welcome to CivilWarTalk. It looks like you're getting some useful advice, which I would expect.

I can't help with evaluating the rifles but was startled at some of the pictures. Please, do not hold the muzzle of a gun pointed at your face for a picture (or any other reason). It doesn't matter how old it may be .

Congrats and good luck trying to figure this out.

They were pointed over my left shoulder for the pictures. Thank you very much for your concern, it is nice to see others concern about gun safety!

Nice pieces! good luck with your search and let us know what you find out.

I will do that, thank you.

 

[Ole Miss]

Welcome from the Shiloh/Pittsburgh Landing Forum and North Mississippi! Hope you will drop in and visit the Forum. Good luck with your weapons search.
Regards
David

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Hello @Lissa8304 .

Welcome aboard !

Although I can't help answer your questions, we have many experts who probably can.

BTW, great images.

 

[Lissa8304]

Hello @Lissa8304 .

Welcome aboard !

Although I can't help answer your questions, we have many experts who probably can.

BTW, great images.

Thank you!

 

[Booner]

Thank you for the information! I will call them tomorrow, should I ask for anybody specific?

I'd suggest looking at their website, and then reading their "research" section. What they said in that section was the reason why I mentioned them, plus I thought they may be close to you.
They make historicaly correct muzzleloaders from the 18th century.
They may not be interested in what you have, but they may be able to recommend someone close to you.
I'm thinking your two rifles are from the early 19th century, so they may be too "new" for them.

Your single barrel rifle was a flintlock at one time, judging by the holes in the lockplate which would have held a frizzen and it's spring. In the 1840's or so, it was pretty common for flintlocks to be converted over to the then new percussion ignition system. It required a booster to be screwed into the barrel (where the flash hole was) and a nipple was screwed into the holster. Then the flintlock hammer was replaced with a percussion hammer, and the frizzen was removed from the lockplate and reshaped to make room for the holster. Any gunsmith of the period would be able to do this.
The double barreled rifle is most interesting of what you have, ( to me at least). It may have started out as a flintlock, but it would appear that if and when the conversion was done, it was done very crudely, judging by the hammers. They don't fit in with the style of the rest of the rifle. It looks like a blacksmith, and not a gunsmith made the hammers. And the gun has a "set" trigger and not a trigger for each barrel. I wondered how that worked? (Btw, your single shot rifle also has a "set trigger" system). That double rifle, especially with it's but plate, must have been a beast to shoot. Maybe men had smaller shoulders then?

Good luck in getting someone to help you. And please let us know what you find out about the guns.

Edit---
It's not all that uncommon that these old guns are still loaded after all these years.

 

[Lissa8304]

I'd suggest looking at their website, and then reading their "research" section. What they said in that section was the reason why I mentioned them, plus I thought they may be close to you.
They make historicaly correct muzzleloaders from the 18th century.
They may not be interested in what you have, but they may be able to recommend someone close to you.
I'm thinking your two rifles are from the early 19th century, so they may be too "new" for them.

Your single barrel rifle was a flintlock at one time, judging by the holes in the lockplate which would have held a frizzen and it's spring. In the 1840's or so, it was pretty common for flintlocks to be converted over to the then new percussion ignition system. It required a booster to be screwed into the barrel (where the flash hole was) and a nipple was screwed into the holster. Then the flintlock hammer was replaced with a percussion hammer, and the frizzen was removed from the lockplate and reshaped to make room for the holster. Any gunsmith of the period would be able to do this.
The double barreled rifle is most interesting of what you have, ( to me at least). It may have started out as a flintlock, but it would appear that if and when the conversion was done, it was done very crudely, judging by the hammers. They don't fit in with the style of the rest of the rifle. It looks like a blacksmith, and not a gunsmith made the hammers. And the gun has a "set" trigger and not a trigger for each barrel. I wondered how that worked? (Btw, your single shot rifle also has a "set trigger" system). That double rifle, especially with it's but plate, must have been a beast to shoot. Maybe men had smaller shoulders then?

Good luck in getting someone to help you. And please let us know what you find out about the guns.

Edit---
It's not all that uncommon that these old guns are still loaded after all these years.

This is great information thank you very much. I am a firearms enthusiast but I have little to no knowledge of these older ones. I don't plan on selling them but being an insurance agent I know how important it is to have them properly insured, unfortunately I can't do that without a proper appraisal. I fear they could still be loaded and I've treated them as such until I can get then to someone willing to look at them for me as they have damage and I do not want to make it worse.

 

[Booner]

I too, am a firearms enthusiast. Unfortunately I lost them all in a tragic boating accident.

 

[JPChurch]

Lissa8304,

There were many solo/private gunsmiths in PA during the mid- late 1700's early 1800's as you well know. Many of them were German/Dutch immigrants. Most of these firearms were custom made. They made some of the finest crafted muzzle loading firearms of all time.

I found a percussion model smoothbore (about .40 cal.) rifle that had a fancy brass patch box on it, it still had the ramrod for it down through the stock, the wood work was striped up. The action was good on the lock and trigger. But the barrel was plugged at the breech. Someone had de-activated it by stuffing up the breech at the bottom of the barrel with a lot of rags. And they must have rammed all that mess down there real good like 150 years ago. Took me many many hours to carefully remove at that with the proper patch worm and various solvents. This particular long arm had a stamp on it of " W H Pannepecker" on the barrel. Nothing else to identify it. I looked that name up and he was a German PA gunsmith way back when. I cleaned it up to a functional state without modifying its appearance. The nipple is clear into the breech but it's rust welded to the barrel. So many vintage firearms are that way. It's a delightful/historical wall hanger and should be treated as such...

(I happened by chance to be part of an "estate cleaning out" of a house in NJ that had lots of vintage uniforms from WW2, a pristine Colt .45 Auto pistol in its original holster, the above mentioned German percussion long arm. Womens' dresses and clothing from the 30's 40's 50's, 60's, fake furs etc. A vintage player piano in the basement with boxes of playing rolls and about 300 long playing LPs from the mid 50's to mid 60's, an old RCA wind up Victrola...with 78's.... it was like stepping into Peabody's Waybac machine).

Best of luck identifying what you have. NRA in Fairfax VA may be of some help, but they take forever. I think you need to be approved for an appointment to get anything identified. Which might be at their discretion and you also need to be a member of course. I would treat any weapon as such as loaded until it's verified by someone that's qualified to do so that it's not.

 

[Lissa8304]

I too, am a firearms enthusiast. Unfortunately I lost them all in a tragic boating accident.

That's horrible, I'm sorry

 

[Lissa8304]

Lissa8304,

There were many solo/private gunsmiths in PA during the mid- late 1700's early 1800's as you well know. Many of them were German/Dutch immigrants. Most of these firearms were custom made. They made some of the finest crafted muzzle loading firearms of all time.

I found a percussion model smoothbore (about .40 cal.) rifle that had a fancy brass patch box on it, it still had the ramrod for it down through the stock, the wood work was striped up. The action was good on the lock and trigger. But the barrel was plugged at the breech. Someone had de-activated it by stuffing up the breech at the bottom of the barrel with a lot of rags. And they must have rammed all that mess down there real good like 150 years ago. Took me many many hours to carefully remove at that with the proper patch worm and various solvents. This particular long arm had a stamp on it of " W H Pannepecker" on the barrel. Nothing else to identify it. I looked that name up and he was a German PA gunsmith way back when. I cleaned it up to a functional state without modifying its appearance. The nipple is clear into the breech but it's rust welded to the barrel. So many vintage firearms are that way. It's a delightful/historical wall hanger and should be treated as such...

(I happened by chance to be part of an "estate cleaning out" of a house in NJ that had lots of vintage uniforms from WW2, a pristine Colt .45 Auto pistol in its original holster, the above mentioned German percussion long arm. Womens' dresses and clothing from the 30's 40's 50's, 60's, fake furs etc. A vintage player piano in the basement with boxes of playing rolls and about 300 long playing LPs from the mid 50's to mid 60's, an old RCA wind up Victrola...with 78's.... it was like stepping into Peabody's Waybac machine).

Best of luck identifying what you have. NRA in Fairfax VA may be of some help, but they take forever. I think you need to be approved for an appointment to get anything identified. Which might be at their discretion and you also need to be a member of course. I would treat any weapon as such as loaded until it's verified by someone that's qualified to do so that it's not.

Great information, thank you!

 

[Story]

They are being professionally restored as soon as I find someone trustworthy. They have not been in my possession long and live in the gun room with the others.

From what I can see, the two Pennsylvania rifles (the single & the double, which yes is rare) started out as flintlocks converted later (and with less skill than originally built) to percussion. That double rifle is particularly neat.

Depending on who made the double barreled shotgun (smoothbore, bottom), they may recommend not doing anything (if Belgian) to stabilizing it as a wall-hanger or even lining the bores if someone's inclined to shoot it. This English firm's narrative for breechloading shotguns gives the jist of the process (https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articles/barrel-lining/ ) and is valid for muzzleloaders.

Dixon's is the best cross-roads for experts in our area, if you're inclined to head up to Kempton. They're good people, will point you in the right direction and host the gunmaker's faire every July.
http://www.dixonmuzzleloading.com/

My suggestion is to email them with your question verbatim, attaching the photos.

Done properly, these restorations will be expensive but last long after all of us have finished breathing.

 

[Lissa8304]

Thank you very much for the information! The plan for these guns is to have them insured, have them restored, and keep them in the family. I will be contacting the people you have suggested!

 

[JPChurch]

Not sure what you mean by "restored." As far as insurance value goes, they would have to be positively identified and then have the condition determined. A lot of times "restoring" a vintage piece can actually detract its original value, so be careful with that...

 

[ikesdad]

If appraised dont be surprised if they are not worth as much as thought. Many people have old family items that they think might be worth much more than they actually are. And I have no idea the value of your firearms.

 

[Lissa8304]

Not sure what you mean by "restored." As far as insurance value goes, they would have to be positively identified and then have the condition determined. A lot of times "restoring" a vintage piece can actually detract its original value, so be careful with that...

That's a large part of the reason I am here, I'm an insurance agent and I know I need some identification so I can get a proper appraisal and in turn insured properly. As far as a restoration I guess the idea would be more to clean them without destroying the value and preservation. Right now they are in a climate controlled room with our other firearms. Do you happen to have any further suggestions until I'm able to have them worked on? You seem as if you may have more knowledge than I do in this area.