Russian navy

major bill

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Aug 25, 2012
We all know the Russian Navy came to America during the Civil War. I think we have discussed the who, what, and why, but I am not sure we have answered this. If Great Britain had intervened in the Civil War was the Russian navy a real asset if they joined the Union? What use would have the Russian ships have been in a Union/Russian and Confederate /Great Britain conflict?
 
We all know the Russian Navy came to America during the Civil War. I think we have discussed the who, what, and why, but I am not sure we have answered this. If Great Britain had intervened in the Civil War was the Russian navy a real asset if they joined the Union? What use would have the Russian ships have been in a Union/Russian and Confederate /Great Britain conflict?
Cannon fodder
 
I know Russia had the 3rd largest navy in the world in 1860 but am unsure if that translates into the 3rd most powerful.
They had 10 screw ships of the line, 9 screw frigates and 27 screw sloops and corvettes. Were these "modern"?
 
Thinking of other navies during the American Civil War, Brazil had the 2nd largest navy in the Western Hemisphere but only had 36 armed sailing ships and 10 armed steam ships. Some were armed with 68 pounders.
 
The havoc wrought upon Union shipping by the seven CSN commerce raiders operating up to October 1863 is a good indication of the potential of the two Russian squadrons, if employed individually against the British merchant marine in the Atlantic and Pacific. (This was presented well enough at http://civilwartalk.com/threads/russian-fleet-shows-support.9760/#post-117349.) There was only a thin tissue of naval strength provided by the Royal Navy on the coasts of China and India. The Navy Lists show forces adequate to suppress piracy and intimidate the natives, but not up to either pursuing raiders with auxiliary screw propulsion, or to convoying the merchant marine against their depredations. Most of the warships in these vital trade areas were low-power (slow) gunboats run up for the Crimean War. A core of faster, well-armed screw sloops was scattered very thinly across the Empire, and as Union pursuit cruisers had found, the seas are wide.

The Russians would contribute to the ruin of British commerce, the fear of which most affected that nation's American policy and strategy.

Assume that breaking the federal blockade of the South would be the first British/French step -- to feed/re-equip the Confederate armies and to stoke up the ailing English textile industry. The best response by the Union would likely be to disperse all gunboats with "legs" (leaving out the paddle steamers and shallow-draft propellors) to North and South Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans. Union raiders would outnumber Royal Navy defenders. For a few weeks or months, Pennsylvania coal might be gotten to sea to supplement the larger at-sea supply carried by British colliers in trade around both southern capes.

The USN also had few warships in the Pacific, but it had yards in California and access to some middle-quality coal at Whatcom, Puget Sound. I'd guess that British entry to the war would trigger an immediate scramble to knock out opposing Pacific naval bases and shipyards: at Esquimalt and at Mare Island/San Francisco. With not a single ironclad on that coast, the San Francisco forts might be potent enough to free up USN ships to take Esquimalt (which had no artillery defenses except those carried by warships in harbor) and the superior coal mines at Nanaimo. Of course, no further gold shipments could safely be sent via Panama, and delays would cause financial problems (possibly grave crises) in both New York and Washington. On the other hand, protecting New Zealand gold shipments to India would draw off some Royal Navy strength.

The Royal Navy was impressive in home waters where the ironclads could operate, but would have been wholly ineffective in protecting British commerce against the numbers of raiders which the Union could release from blockade duty. France and Britain posed no more real military threat to the United States than the US posed a naval threat to either. But the joint ironclad fleets could have threatened New York and other ports. That circumstance would have provided a telling test of the two ironclad design theories, since to be useful at all in the Americas, the British/French ironclads would have been forced to fight the inshore battle that monitors were best suited for.

It's just a theory...
 
I know Russia had the 3rd largest navy in the world in 1860 but am unsure if that translates into the 3rd most powerful.
They had 10 screw ships of the line, 9 screw frigates and 27 screw sloops and corvettes. Were these "modern"?

I had read some time back that there were four major naval powers in the 19th century: England, France, U.S., and Russia- in order of power (and presumably size) with Russia being by far the least threat of the group. Does this seem accurate to you? It came from a book with a seeming English slant; Gardiner 1992 Steam, Steel, and Shellfire.
 
We all know the Russian Navy came to America during the Civil War. I think we have discussed the who, what, and why, but I am not sure we have answered this. If Great Britain had intervened in the Civil War was the Russian navy a real asset if they joined the Union? What use would have the Russian ships have been in a Union/Russian and Confederate /Great Britain conflict?

Had Britain intervened in the Civil War the ships dispatched by the tsar would have moved port. They were under no circumstances to become involved in that conflict, and were solely there as a threat to deter Britain and France from intervening in the Polish revolt.

As commerce raiders they probably would have been ideal, but other than buffing the numbers the USN would have had for that particular job in 1863 they don't add much to the strategic calculation.
 
I think the principal role that would be played by the Russian Navy in the event of a general war would be that of a distraction. They were large enough to need an eye kept on them, at any rate. Britain would have preferred to keep them out of it-- fewer moving parts to concentrate on.
The lone Russian naval success in the last 200 years was an 1853 victory over the Turks
 
There is an article in the latest edition of Civil War News (just got our copy in the mail yesterday) that talks about the Russian visit to the US during the Civil War. It features this image of a Russian sailor in the barrel of a Rodman gun. No idea why there is an owl perched on top.

The article is in the "Through the Lens" column.

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LOL! Yeah, what's that owl doing there?!?

It could be a non-owl whose head moved quickly during the exposure, of course-- but it sure does look like an owl!

(I don't think that's a Russian sailor in there; he appears to be wearing a garden-variety American forage cap.)
 
LOL! Yeah, what's that owl doing there?!?

It could be a non-owl whose head moved quickly during the exposure, of course-- but it sure does look like an owl!

(I don't think that's a Russian sailor in there; he appears to be wearing a garden-variety American forage cap.)

You need to read the article. The caption for the image came from a period reference about how a small Russian sailor was able to fit in a Rodman rifle at Battery Rodgers while an owl was on top of the gun.

I have to admit a little bias on this article. I have been waiting for the paper to arrive before I posted this image and the reference to the article. I had actually read the article and all of the notes about the Russian sailor a month ago. My wife is the columnist that wrote the story and I saw all of her rather lengthy research notes that went into the article and photo. The above photo is straight from the LOC. The one that appears in the paper is one that I cleaned up and removed a bunch of the damage and spots on the print.​
 
@USS ALASKA thanks. Phew! Long article but I believe is summarizes all points of view.
The author does say that all nations - Russia in this case - act in their own self-interest. He also mentions Russia was Europe's "bogey man" because she wanted to extend her influence southwards - the Balkans, Crimea, Black Sea.
What's not mentioned is that Russia was in deep financial trouble and the almighty ruble ran the show so Russia needed to act cautiously and so we have those nice words towards America but really aimed at her enemies.
Russia did a top rate diplomatic job - kept GB & Fr. always wondering. About a dozen years after the Crimean War she picked up where she left off and no one stopped her.
 
One more question on this scenario, if another conflict between the Crimean War adversaries kicks off in 1863, and the Russian fleet sorties from Union ports and starts attacking French and British shipping wherever they can, does this create another Trent Affair or worse?

Cheers,
USS ALASKA
 
One more question on this scenario, if another conflict between the Crimean War adversaries kicks off in 1863, and the Russian fleet sorties from Union ports and starts attacking French and British shipping wherever they can, does this create another Trent Affair or worse?

Depends. If the U.S. expels the Russian fleet within a few days, then the U.S. can still stand as a neutral. If it allows the Russians to stay much longer or openly supplies them with military supplies, then the British have the right to assume that the Americans are allowing the Russians to use American ports and, therefore, the U.S. and its ships are valid targets.
 
We all know the Russian Navy came to America during the Civil War. I think we have discussed the who, what, and why, but I am not sure we have answered this. If Great Britain had intervened in the Civil War was the Russian navy a real asset if they joined the Union? What use would have the Russian ships have been in a Union/Russian and Confederate /Great Britain conflict?

Well, being Russian...)

This depend. Their standing orders were NOT to engage british ships, unless the war were declared between Russia and Britain. But the Confederate ships weren't specified in orders. In fact, rear admiral Popov (the commander of the Pacific Squadron) issued the order that if any Confederacy raider would appear near San-Francisco, the russian ships must be ready to engage her.

But would the Russian Empire actually intervene if the war were declared by the Britain against USA? Hard to say.

I know Russia had the 3rd largest navy in the world in 1860 but am unsure if that translates into the 3rd most powerful.
They had 10 screw ships of the line, 9 screw frigates and 27 screw sloops and corvettes. Were these "modern"?

Basically no. Three of eignth (not ten) screw ships-of-the-line were actually rebuild from sail ships, launched in 1837 (!!!). and they were already worn-out and outdated. Of the five specially-build steam ships, only three were first-rate, and they were generally considered unseaworthy.

The frigates, on the other hands, were better. There were 11 screw frigates in Russian Navy, and only one of them was build before 1858. A lot of corvettes and clippers were also either comissioned or under construction on Baltic.

So, the Russian Navy was pretty good prepared for raider war against Britain. We have a lot of good raiders... the problem was, that our harbors could be easily blockaded in case of war. So, the best ships were send in USA, to be able to strike the british trade from the west.

The lone Russian naval success in the last 200 years was an 1853 victory over the Turks

Hm? You forgot the World War I actions?
 
One more question on this scenario, if another conflict between the Crimean War adversaries kicks off in 1863, and the Russian fleet sorties from Union ports and starts attacking French and British shipping wherever they can, does this create another Trent Affair or worse?

Well, probably yes :smile: The Russian Empire would probably do everything possible to draw the Union into the war... and visa versa, actually. I think, if the war were declared between Union and Britain, the Union would do everything to draw the Russia into the war. After all - we were the only possible ally.
 

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