Russian Naval Help?

[wausaubob]

This is very interesting. Negotiations over the Alabama Claims, which continued until the Treaty of Washington in 1871, also helped laid the groundwork for a rapprochement between the United States and Britain and the eventual "special relationship" the two nations share.

Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

When the Civil War ended and it was clear that the US was an emerging world power, it was in the interest of Britain to bring the US into the international law system. The groundwork was laid down earlier in the Seward/Lyons treaty to end the use of US flag as cover for slave trading. Later Seward wanted to get credit for settling the disputed claims, but the Grant administration had more ambitious goals.

 

[Philip Leigh]

Some Russian sailors in New York...

View attachment 539744

Ultimately perhaps the most famous of those Russian sailors was a youthful midshipman, Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov.

 

[rebelatsea]

In Admiral Milne, we succeeded in having the right man in the right place at the right time in diplomacy terms,
I dread to think what would have happened if the UK and the Union had butted heads, He would have been a deadly opponent.

 

[Library Lady]

In Admiral Milne, we succeeded in having the right man in the right place at the right time in diplomacy terms,
I dread to think what would have happened if the UK and the Union had butted heads, He would have been a deadly opponent.

Peter Tsouras' trilogy Britannia's Fist, an alternative history Civil War, had Admiral Milne and General Wolseley as protagonists on the British side. I got the distinct impression, even in a not real life scenario, that you messed with those gents at your own risk. He also has the Russian fleet providing significant assistance and Rimsky-Korsakov has his own adventure. I know alternative history is not everyone's cup of tea, but I found these books to be entertaining which is all I'm really looking for when I read that genre, although sometimes I get introduced to people who I want to find out more about in real life. I enjoy listening to Rimsky-Korsakov's music, but I didn't realize until reading Britannia's Fist and then looking into it that his day job was with the Russian Navy and composing was a side hustle. I'm glad @Philip Leigh mentioned him.

 

[neyankee61]

Rear Admiral Sir Alexander Milne received a letter from Lord Lyons that said he did not "regard a sudden declaration of war against us by the United States as an event altogether impossible at any moment." This arose from the Trent Affair, which pushed the US/GB relationship to a near breaking point. Though greeted with enthusiasm in the US at first, cooler heads realized the disaster a war with GB would be. Lincoln reportedly said, "one war at a time." Many historians credit Seward and Lincoln's handling of the crisis as decisive in ending the crisis.

 

[Rhea Cole]

From the British point of view the only existential threat that a Russian squadron in American waters threatened gold shipments from Guiana was essential for the solvency of HM government. In an age where actual tons of gold was the measure of a nation's wealth, Great Britain had a hard money problem.

Note: All the gold ever mined would form a cube 72 feet / 22 meters on a side.

During the Civil War Great Britain consistently shipped more gold to the U.S. than it received. Managing a worldwide empire required a steady flow of gold. The relatively recent bonanza from Guiana. Even the threat of a Russian squadron lurking along the shipping lanes where gold shipments sailed was deeply worrying… The Tsar's government knew that.

The Russian squadron was not in America waters to risk disaster navigating the hazardous Carolina coast to chase blockade runners. Mere puff-poof run ins with RN combatants was not why the Russians came to the East Coast. They had their sights set on a lucrative strategic prey, British gold ships from Guiana.

 

[Belfoured]

From the British point of view the only existential threat that a Russian squadron in American waters threatened gold shipments from Guiana. In an age where actual tons of gold was the measure of a nation's wealth, Great Britain had a hard money problem.

Note: All the gold ever mined would form a cube 72 feet / 22 meters on a side.

During the Civil War Great Britain consistently shipped more gold to the U.S. than it received. Managing a worldwide empire required a steady flow of gold. The relatively recent bonanza from Guiana. Even the threat of a Russian squadron lurking along the shipping lanes where gold shipments sailed was deeply worrying… The Tsar's government knew that.

The Russian squadron was not in America waters to risk disaster navigating the hazardous Carolina coast to chase blockade runners. Mere puff-poof run ins with RN combatants was not why the Russians came to the East Coast. They had their sights set on a lucrative strategic prey, British gold ships from Guiana.

Good points. All this should be viewed in the reality shown by the records in the Imperial Archives rather than the spin which was generated by the visits of the Baltic Squadron (NY) and the Pacific Squadron (SF). The visits were prompted by the Russians' fear that their Navy would be trapped in its home ports. The three frigates, two corvettes, and the clipper in the Baltic Squadron were plagued by poor steam propulsion, poorly-fit sails, structural issues, inexperienced crews, poor food and - surprisingly by the mid-19th century - scurvy. The notion that these vessels would play any meaningful role - even if the US and Russia wanted that - appears to be illusory.

 

[USS ALASKA]

Mere puff-poof run ins with RN combatants was not why the Russians came to the East Coast. They had their sights set on a lucrative strategic prey, British gold ships from Guiana.

Sounds interesting sir - do you have a source for this info?

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[Belfoured]

Sounds interesting sir - do you have a source for this info?

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

PM'd ...

 

[wausaubob]

In Admiral Milne, we succeeded in having the right man in the right place at the right time in diplomacy terms,
I dread to think what would have happened if the UK and the Union had butted heads, He would have been a deadly opponent.

He seemed to have understood the Americans well. The US navy was certainly studying everything the British were doing. Whatever Admiral Milne did, the results were obvious. There were no more serious incidents. The US blockade of the Confederacy gradually succeeded as more Confederate ports were captured. The British Foreign Office prevented the transfer of the Laird rams. I think Lord Russell said it was done as a matter of policy.
What cannot be known is how much news about the Alabama was given to the US navy. Or was it simply published in open source shipping news.

 

[wausaubob]

The Russians would not have been much help to the US. But the US ship builders could have helped the Russians significantly. And the Russian navy would have benefitted from learning the methods used in the US.

 

[neyankee61]

"The British Foreign Office prevented the transfer of the Laird rams."
But not of the CSS Stonewall!

 

[rebelatsea]

"The British Foreign Office prevented the transfer of the Laird rams."
But not of the CSS Stonewall!

The L'Arman rams were built in France - Nothing to do with the UK.

 

[wausaubob]

The L'Arman rams were built in France - Nothing to do with the UK.

It made it to Denmark. Then it cruised to Spain, where it sprung a leak. It made it as far as Cuba. Then there were no Confederate ports open, because someone had accelerated the US capture of Fort Fisher.

 

[rebelatsea]

It made it to Denmark. Then it cruised to Spain, where it sprung a leak. It made it as far as Cuba. Then there were no Confederate ports open, because someone had accelerated the US capture of Fort Fisher.

Bought by the Japanese, where it served successfully

 

[neyankee61]

"The L'Arman rams were built in France - Nothing to do with the UK."
I should have known that! 35 years ago, I had to write a paper for my US Diplomacy class about the ship. I don't remember the grade or obliviously much about the paper!

 

[rebelatsea]

"The L'Arman rams were built in France - Nothing to do with the UK."
I should have known that! 35 years ago, I had to write a paper for my US Diplomacy class about the ship. I don't remember the grade or obliviously much about the paper!

Don't worry, we all have moments ! i put a drawing on one of the ironclad Facebook Groups I'm in asking what it was of. Very quickly I was told it was one of mine ! I honestly didn't remember making it.

 

[Belfoured]

Don't worry, we all have moments ! i put a drawing on one of the ironclad Facebook Groups I'm in asking what it was of. Very quickly I was told it was one of mine ! I honestly didn't remember making it.

The good news is that you didn't rip it as bad artwork

 

[19thGeorgia]

Russia was officially neutral during the war. L.Q.C. Lamar was sent as commissioner but never made it to St. Petersburg.
However, he did meet with Russian diplomats in Paris. The only country that officially sided with the Union was the Ottoman Empire.

 

[wausaubob]

Russia was officially neutral during the war. L.Q.C. Lamar was sent as commissioner but never made it to St. Petersburg.
However, he did meet with Russian diplomats in Paris. The only country that officially sided with the Union was the Ottoman Empire.

View attachment 540159

The British remained officially neutral. But one researcher estimated that British investors purchased $150M in US war debt. That would have been about 5-6% of the debt. Prussia made another small loan, about $15M. The Russian reformers ended serfdom in 1862, which was officially neutral but hardly friendly to the Confederacy. The King of Siam sent elephants to Lincoln.